Saw my first BFRs!

[Chris G]

Does anyone know which page of the BFR thread these ones are on so we can all have a look?

[Big Poppa]

if you dont like the bfrs. one post on someone elses thread is enough.

You want me to tell you that you are right when we like what we are making and the public does too...(Im getting wrist cramps signing those damn cards!)

I cannot respond to your personal preferences. I can ask you to not misuse the quality word.

Case closed.

[darren]

Stating your opinion once is fine, but you have two consecutive posts criticising the quality of the finishes. Then, when someone calls you on it, you again post and again state that you're dissapointed because they don't meet your expectations.

I posted two consective times (several days apart, mind you) because i had the rare opportunity to see two BFRs with different woods and different colours in exactly the same spot in the same store. I just wanted people to know that my first post was not just a fluke, one-off incident. And again, the word "quality" was used out of context. My expectation was that the BFRs would be the "best of the best", and in my opinion that expectation was not met. Your expectations may be different from mine, and that's fine. But that shouldn't prevent me from saying (or writing) what i did.

One of the things I always try to bear in mind, is that these forums don't just act as a place where we can all get together and talk about the guitars that we own and love, they also act as an information resource where potential purchasers can research information before purchasing their guitars. By posting about guitars that you have seen in a shop, you not only potentially deter the purchaser from visiting that shop, you also deter the purchaser from looking at that model.

I just think it's a bit rude. Sorry, but in my mind it's the same as standing in the shop and shouting your opinion.

I agree with you completely about the forum serving as a valuable resource from which current (and future) customers can learn about the products. It should also serve as an example of how the company responds to legitimate concerns of current (and future) customers. Calling an attempt at informed and intelligent discussion "hogwash" isn't rude?

And when i'm shopping for a high-ticket item, i make no bones about pointing out flaws in materials, fit and finish or build quality. When i walk out of the store (or showroom) i want the retailer (or manufacturer) to have a very clear understanding of how and why their product did not meet my expectations, so they can apply that feedback to make the product better and maybe win the sale the next time around.

If a company chooses not to act or respond to customer feedback in a constructive and pro-active way, that's their perogative. But to completely dismiss feedback outright?

[Big Poppa]

isnt wiki fun!

Darren, you mentioned two methods based on your reasearch (that I bet is after your original threads)

"So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen."

WHich ones do we make with a black stain? Are all tinted clearcoat?

Im asking because of the above 'wiki' thoughts.....

You are now an expert..How do you think we do it?

[Jimmyb]

Darren, I'm going to agree to disagree.

You have your opinion and I respect that, we're all different.

[Big Poppa]

I said "stating fact with zero basis is hogwash." How is that wrong?

[darren]

isnt wiki fun!

Darren, you mentioned two methods based on your reasearch (that I bet is after your original threads)

In no way have i made personal attacks or disparaging remarks about anyone in this discussion. Yet you're now making the discussion personal, and are taking a very defensive stance by trying to undermine my own knowledge and credibility, suggesting that i copied-and-pasted from Wikipedia.

FYI, everything i posted came straight out of my noggin. As i said, i've been a "student" of guitar bulding for 20+ years, soaking up as much knowledge and experience from others as i can. Please don't presume that i went out and did some quick online research to find information to back up my position. That's a very cynical and belittling attitude. But since you don't know me from a hole in the ground, i guess i owe you a bit of background so you can understand where i'm coming from.

You asked for a bio, so i'll give you a quick summary of who i am and how i got here.

Guitars are a passion of mine, and i've been learning about this stuff for years. Were it not for committing to an alternate career path at a very early age, i might have become a luthier. (And if my circumstances allow, it's what i hope to do on a part-time basis, or even full-time when i "retire".) Right now, it's only lack of time and shop space that are keeping me from pursuing building instruments.

Going back a little further... i was identified as an academically "gifted" student when i was very young, and was guided away from "the trades" and on a path to enter University to study architecture, industrial design or graphic design.

At age 17, my curiosity and passion about guitars led me to take a course at The Twelfth Fret here in Toronto, where i built my first guitar under the guidance of Grant MacNeill and Gordon Barry. That was a defining moment in my life, and still stands almost 20 years later as one of the most rewarding and fulfilling things i've done in my life. Had i known this earlier, i would have taken greater advantage of the wood shop and metal shop in my high school, instead of grinding away in pointless drafting classes.

Fast forward to today: I now work as a graphic designer and creative director. I am driven by a passion for design in all things. I learned in art school how to critique in a constructive way, and how to take criticism without seeing it as a personal attack. These lessons still serve me well today. My work gets criticized every day by my colleagues, my staff and most importantly, my clients. It's part of what i do, and it makes my work better. If they're paying the bills, they get a say.

Can i please everyone every time? No. But i can go back to the drawing board and try to make things better.

And i still obsess over guitars and guitar technology. And i love the smell of fresh-cut lumber.

WHich ones do we make with a black stain? Are all tinted clearcoat?

Im asking because of the above 'wiki' thoughts.....

You are now an expert..How do you think we do it?

Based on what i saw, the finishes appear to be a combination of stain and tinted clear (except for perhaps the black ones). But if they're not, i'm fully prepared to stand corrected... but obviously, i don't expect you to divulge trade secrets.

[kevin]

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/musi...re-thread.html

I'm very proud of whats coming out of the factory....

[rmh925]

Very informative thread.

[Dargin]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread...it's like a dang book!

I believe the critiques I've read are unfair. Let me offer a different perspective...When we were picking finishes for BFR's the goal was to create something rich or elegant. We decided to go with the black stain and not sand it off as much to make the red darker and more "Ruby" than our standard trans red (like what we do on the Axis). Keep in mind there are other design elements that we went with, and that so far all BFR's have bursted to black. I guess we could have gone with the normal trans red, but how is that any fun?

[www.lamusic.ca]

I think the BFRs are on the right road, but I will say that they certainly shine much nicer in the proper lighting environments. I mean, I've got 12 on order, lol.

[darren]

I can definitely appreciate the black bursted edge, since the "recipe" of tone woods in the BFRs is something you don't want to reveal. It's likely a huge part of why they've been getting such rave reviews for their tone, so i can understand why you want to keep that a closely guarded design element.

You guys should definitely be proud of ALL the instruments you put out. They're among the best instruments available today, and they put to shame other American companies who trade on their name and their heritage only.

And any misgivings i may have about the BFR finishes aside, they're still impressive instruments.

[leftyguitarblue]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread...it's like a dang book!

I believe the critiques I've read are unfair. Let me offer a different perspective...When we were picking finishes for BFR's the goal was to create something rich or elegant. We decided to go with the black stain and not sand it off as much to make the red darker and more "Ruby" than our standard trans red (like what we do on the Axis). Keep in mind there are other design elements that we went with, and that so far all BFR's have bursted to black. I guess we could have gone with the normal trans red, but how is that any fun?

And the future possibility of a left handed model has got me excited.

[PBGas]

I have 2 BFR models. What I love about them is the complete uniqueness of each finish. They all have their intricacies and being that it is a wood grain, they all are different as with any guitar with that kind of top. My rubyburst is fairly dark but when the light hits it, oh my! My blackburst is actually quite stunning, even in a darker room.

However, having had both the regular and the BRF models.....the tone is what REALLY stands out. Both guitars totally ring clearer than their basswood versions. Someone once told me that the choice of wood you use makes no difference whatsoever.....that person was wrong. You can clearly hear it without the amp plugged in. They've nailed it on these models!

YES......many of those guitars you see in the main thread are actually darker in person. You may have been expecting a bigger POP on the finish.....It is in how the lighting is applied to the picture but in essence, the sheer beauty of the instrument is there regardless.

What I would like to know is....how many other companies put up their specialty axes (ie. the exact guitar you'd be buying...not just a model) into a thread so that potential customers can see them. This would be the first company I've ever seen do this.

Kudo's to them for making some of the most incredible and desirable instruments in the world!!

[PBGas]

I saw my first BFR today. It was a red quilt Petrucci 6-string at Long & McQuade in Burlington.

It was a beautiful-looking piece, for sure. And i hope my comments aren't going to be taken the wrong way, but, well... the top was not as good as i would expect from Music Man. (Note that i did NOT say that it sucks!)

It was a very nice piece of quilted maple for sure. But the finish simply did not do it justice. The "three dimensional" quality of the figure was completely killed by what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat.

I have to be totally honest, guys (and blackball me on the forum if you must... no pun intended). This was not the quality of finish i'd expect to see on a guitar in this price range. I've seen photo-flames that looked as good, and veneers that had more of that chatoyance that makes figured maple so magically deep and exotic-looking.

Sorry, but i have to say i was VERY disappointed. Nice wood, but the finish absolutely killed it.

Ahh......that would now be MY guitar. I brought the 7 back to them as I wasn't happy with it at all. No further comment needed here. Something just wasn't right about it. I verified by having a pro check it out as well. I had the 30 day exchange policy and I exercised it and am so much happier!

By the way.....please have your vision checked, immediately .
I'll post a few pics of it at some point soon. That Burlington store is dark as night inside. The idea isn't to have a veneer that looks like everything else. I love this guitar because it plays like nothing else.