Question Tempered tuning and the compensated nut?

[JMD]

I'm hoping some of you music geeks (that's a compliment - to be clear) can fill me in on this 'tempered tuning'. Is it really an issue? does the compensated nut help? what is your experience with tempered tuning? Thanks in advance for your time/opinion/expertise.

 

[Spudmurphy]

I remember reading an article by a session guitarist who said something along the lines of he had a couple of guitars with him and would choose his guitar based on the key that he was playing in (along with the tone of course). I believe it was because some guitars played better in tune depending on the key the recorded song was in. So with that in mind his different guitars ergo his guitars had different forms of tempered tuning. There is an interesting article here
Well temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just as an aside a friend of mine builds guitars for a living and has received excellent feedback from customers on how well his guitars play in tune with a non compensated nut. The scale spacing he uses is based on a particular brand scrap neck he has and he has tweeked the measurements he uses when marking out and fretting the blank fingerboard (his little trade secret).
So I'm not a geek like him on this and would leave it to more initiated to chime in.

Me - hell I play balls that have both the compensated and uncompensated nut and I don't have an issue but there again I don't have the finely honed hearing of a pro.

That's nothing to detract from the fact that I hope this will be an interesting thread from which I hope to learn more.

 

[alf cockle]

Interesting topic.I,too have Balls with and without the compensated nut.Quite honestly,if I have done a recent setup on my older Balls ,they seem pretty good,as far as intonation and ability to maintain tune.....but my desires may not be what somebody else*s are????

 

[DrKev]

I would love to dive right in here and explain all in great detail but I'm running out the door on a hot date!

If we set the string length to it's theoretical 25.5" inches and tune the strings perfectly, we'll find that the mere act of fretting a note stretches the string slightly slightly and the pitch of the fretted notes go a little sharp of what they're supposed to be. We counteract this by compensating at the bridge saddles when you adjust the intonation. But that's not quite perfect either and the answer is to compensate at the nut too.

We've all been there - tune the guitar perfectly but there is always one or two open chords that still suck? The compensated nut makes that issue a lot easier to deal with. I think it's the most important improvement in guitar building of the last century.

As for 'tempered' tunings, IMNSO, I don't think they are necessary on a guitar, especially so where the compensated nut is concerned. In fact I think they are a waste of time and only cause more tuning problems, particularly in the recording studio. Far more important is the best guitar tuner you can afford (I love the TC Electronic PolyTune) and a well set-up guitar that stays in tune when you tune it. Compensated nut makes life even better.

Good night, I'm outta here...

 

[JMD]

Thanks all for your input....so here is the dilemma:

Play a form A chord (or heck - just play an open A chord) with a little drive (or alot)......check with the tuner - get it all right to pitch.....do you find you have to make that 3rd (the C#) a little flat to make the 'ringing' smooth (i.e the disonnent beats that vibrate). If this is not your experience - just ignore me.....if you know what I'm hearing - the questions becomes: Do I record with the 3rd 'a little flat' for a smooth sound or do I make it pitch correct? What to do live? I know it aways comes down to personal preference, but I wonder what you are doing? I'm on the fence....I've recorded takes twice to give people options...but this seems like overkill...

P.S. Dr.Kev - hope yer hot date went well....I'm cheering for ya.

 

[RocketRalf]

I quite like the NON-smooth ringing as you call it. I find it an essential part of the electric guitar sound. I really don't understand today's obsession with playing everything perfectly in tune, which is impossible to begin with (if you know about temperaments you know what I'm talking about).

I do like my compensated nut. I think it helps achieve an equal tempered tuning. I wouldn't try any other temperament, because like I said, it's part of the sound to me.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Thanks all for your input....so here is the dilemma:

Play a form A chord (or heck - just play an open A chord) with a little drive (or alot)......check with the tuner - get it all right to pitch.....do you find you have to make that 3rd (the C#) a little flat to make the 'ringing' smooth (i.e the disonnent beats that vibrate). If this is not your experience - just ignore me.....if you know what I'm hearing - the questions becomes: Do I record with the 3rd 'a little flat' for a smooth sound or do I make it pitch correct? What to do live? I know it aways comes down to personal preference, but I wonder what you are doing? I'm on the fence....I've recorded takes twice to give people options...but this seems like overkill...

P.S. Dr.Kev - hope yer hot date went well....I'm cheering for ya.

.. and sometimes I'll slightly flatten the G string.

Lokking forward to Dr Kev recovering from his hottie before he chimes in again ... over to you Kev

 

[DrKev]

Thanks for the wishes guys. I am smiling today!

Ralf has it right - the guitar (and ANY instruments where pitch of notes are fixed, like a piano for example) is designed around equal tempered tuning. But in equal temperament, certain intervals are not quite what the ear likes to hear.

Why? Well, in Just Intonation (what the ear likes to hear, think barbershop quartets) the correct pitch of each note depends on what key we're playing in. But to do that correctly on a guitar we would have to retune the guitar if we change key and possibly adjust the fret positions. It's totally impractical on, say, a piano which has 88 keys and 240 strings!

So we need a compromise - we'll use a 12 note scale, divided so the notes match in every key (which is why it's called equal tempered). We don't mind a few chords sounding just a little bit off, provided all chords sound equally good (or bad) in every key. It means that some chords don't sound as perfect as we like but we don't have to retune every time we change key.

It's important to note this - that's how guitars and pianos and saxophones and harmonicas etc are actually constructed. 99% of all recorded popular music was played on instruments that were designed that way! And every tuner that you use for your guitar displays pitch according to equal tempered tuning.

For people with sensitive ears, even a well-tuned guitar can have some chords that sound a little off. When we try to adjust the tuning to improve one chord, we can end up putting some other chords even further out. It's important that we accept the compromise and learn to live with the sound of well-tuned guitar. It's not a barbershop quartet, nor should it sound like one! Pianos are equal tempered and they sound fine doing (almost) exactly what a guitar is supposed to do!

One last note for JMD - when we use distortion we are actually adding harmonics to the sound. Those harmonics don't always conform to equal tempered tuning so chord forms with three or more different notes quickly start to clash. It sounds very messy, particularly when we get away from fifth and fourths (power chords, basically). If people want a distorted sound with a specific tonality, IMO, the best options are simple two-note intervals of root-third, third-fifth, etc., usually with one of those notes in the octave above, and their inversions. Basically try any two notes out of a standard chord shape and see what the result is like. But resist the temptation to re-tune! There are other instruments there and you have to be in tune with them too!

 

[JMD]

Thanks for that Dr.Kev - this is exactly what I'm interested in hearing about.

I messed around today with a slightly flat b-string and also slightly flat g-string (thanks Spudmurphy) - I liked it alot for anything in the key of A or D, but not so much for G. So, I'm considering getting used to knocking a few cents off those respective strings depending on the key signature (fyi I play mostly rock/pop).

Does anyone else do this (retune ever so slightly depending of the key)? I've read EVH has done this for several tunes (e.g. think 'Unchained' or 'Runnin with the Devil') - which perhaps is why those tunes rely largly on the A-form chords ('cause E-form would be right out...and with that drive...)

Would love to hear from any of you other picky-players too.

For the record - I'm loving my new SM-std, the tuning is wonderful and variety of tones seems endless (just as an aside here)

 

[Spudmurphy]

Nice one Dr Kev.

Now I wouldn't stoop so low to say "Hot date doesn't exist without pics" - I may incur the wrath of Mods - so I won't stoop!!

 

[DrKev]

Won't stoop? Mate, I think you just did!

 

[nasticanasta]

I'm the pickiest about tuning I have ever met and anyone who has met me would agree...I have always been able to tune by ear, and in all the bands I have been in it was I who would make sure everyone was in tune with other. I have one guitar with the "compensated nut" (ESP EC-1000), and I honestly don't see any difference... my guitar tech wanted to take it off instantly, but I told him to leave it, he even showed me with his oscilloscope how it still wasn't compensating anything. When I can hit full chords without an inkling of oscillations I'm happy. I do not own any Ernie Ball guitars but I do use "Slinky's" and always use my Jr. Volume pedal, and my cousin has an old original Stingray fretless bass.

 

[JMD]

I'm the pickiest about tuning I have ever met and anyone who has met me would agree...I have always been able to tune by ear, and in all the bands I have been in it was I who would make sure everyone was in tune with other. I have one guitar with the "compensated nut" (ESP EC-1000), and I honestly don't see any difference... my guitar tech wanted to take it off instantly, but I told him to leave it, he even showed me with his oscilloscope hot it still wasn't compensating anything. When I can hit full chords without an inkling of oscillations I'm happy. I do not own any Ernie Ball guitars but I do use "Slinky's" and always use my Jr. Volume pedal, and my cousin has an old original Stingray fretless bass.

So, given your distaste for 'oscillations', do you 'temper' your tuning based on the primary song key?

 

[nasticanasta]

So, given your distaste for 'oscillations', do you 'temper' your tuning based on the primary song key?

No...I put the dang thing in tune and away I go! I temper it based on it being in tune...I've been playing in Ohio for over 25 years, I knew "The GODZ" (Mark Chatfield the lead guitarist played for Bob Segar and is touring with Bob right now. Eric Moore bass player gave me my first guitar, a Gibson 65 Melody Maker), Local musician Frank Harrison an awesome blues guitarist that would make Hendrix and Trower blush he has a few cd's out there I know Frank Marino of Mahogany Rush fame, Michael Bruce from the original Alice Cooper line up come over to my house after a show and we jammed!!, went to Jorma Kaukonen's 'Fur Peace Ranch" and did some studying with Larry Coryell there, Had dinner and have talked with Allan Holdsworth and have had long discussions with more times than I can count...and not one of these masters has ever done more than tune it up with a tuner...though I will add Allan is as picky as I am it seems...sometimes one string slightly out of tune will throw my solos...cause I don't write out my solos I just play what I feel

 

[Jimmyb]

And somewhere along the lines, you manage to change the laws of physics?

Cool!