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milosjak

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Hi all,

I'm following up on my experience on the BFR Cutlass HSS guitar that I got about 9 months ago.
I've essentially been playing it every day since I got, so this I think speaks enough on how much I like it.
I realized I love the v necks because of this guitar. Also, because of it I think I'm realizing I love single coils, even though I'm a heavy gain type of guy.

However, I would be lying if I said it's without issues. Some objective, and some subjective, meaning they might not be issues to everyone.
As for the objective issues:
1. Getting the truss rod to the 0.15 clearance leaves very little room in bridge saddles, as I have to get them pretty much all the way down to get 1.5mm from 12th fret to the string (and that's measured with the first fret pressed).
2. Another issue that I discovered while adjusting the truss rod is that when I get the clearance right on the bass side, the treble string has pretty much no clearance, meaning the neck is ever so slightly warped.
3. The finish on the inside of the lower horn has not been properly buffed/polished. I didn't realize this until recently as I don't have a tendency to touch this part, however, there is some orange skin feeling gloss, that's not existent elsewhere.

Some would say I'm picky but the neck is also a missed opportunity as far as the wood piece is concerned, as the flame is only really visible from the upside down, and not from the above, and it also has a big mineral streak on the upper side. It just tells me that no special attention has been payed when this piece of wood was handled. This, plus the above points really get me to think whether the BFR moniker really means anything other than a limited run color, as the quality could definitely be better for a 3k euro guitar.

But absolutely the biggest gripe I have with this guitar is the humbucker. I've been going back and forth with the music man support to figure out if there's anything wrong with it, but honestly I'm loosing faith they will help, which is why I'm also writing here, thinking I couldn't be the only one. Essentially what I complained in my original NGD post is still a thing. I'm not sure if it's something with my humbucker or if this is how it's supposed to be, but it in no way matches the sound of the single coils. The neck single is so much snappier, has more attack, more bass+treble, and what's most weird is it has more output. When going from neck single to bridge humbucker, it feels like pure mud.

I sent recordings to support, so I'll attach them here. I tried two different amps, and have crunch and clean recordings from them, but here's the clean one for now:

It's especially evident in the second part.

You could argue it's psycho acoustics, however the waveform in DAW clearly shows that the single coil neck is louder (the waveform is not from the above recording):

I've tried resetting the pickups to factory spec, raising and lowering the humbucker as far as it goes, but getting it higher just makes it more distorted, not really louder.
The only break through I've managed to do is to lower the pickup but raise the pole pieces. It's still not ideal, as the chords don't have the clarity that I'd want, but it's much better than raising the whole humbucker. In fact, the bit that got me the most, is when I removed the screws altogether and then raised the whole humbucker, thinking it would make it brighter, however, the mud came back. So it seems like the coil that's further from the bridge produces the muddy mids that I hate, but the coil that's closer gives it the attack.
Even though raising pole pieces makes it much closer, the output is still not match.

As I said, I've contacted MM support already, even though I'm well aware that this might be just me realizing that I prefer single coil sound, even though I'm essentially playing metal. The reason I didn't buy an SSS Cutlass, is because I didn't like any of the offered colors, but also because I was worried it would not be enough output for me, which, judging by the neck single in this one, it probably wouldn't be enough for the bridge. The new HT SSS would be interesting, but I doubt MM would be interested to sell me a loaded pickguard with them.

Another weird thing that I checked and got no response from support about is the output impedance. If I measure through the cable I get 1Meg! Isn't that insane for a buffered signal? I've measured the pickup wires instead and they give me 12.4k, 6.3k and 6.2k, going from bridge to neck. Support told me those numbers are fine, but said nothing on the 1Meg impedance on the cable.

TLDR Guitar is pretty solid, although not sure if it's worthy of being called BFR and costing 3k eur, and pickup balance is pretty bad in my opinion.

Thanks all,
Milos
 
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racerx

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I'm interested to hear what support says. I'm sure they'll get you figured out; they're really great there.

I can't speak to your setup preferences, but I'd recommend taking it to your dealer or their tech to have a look to get a neutral/professional opinion. Regarding your jack reading, that makes sense as the reading comes post-board/power and will make checking there unreliable. You did the right thing by measuring at the pickup leads to get the correct reading, nothing is wrong there.
 

DrKev

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First, re output impedance, this could be totally normal. Many multimeters only measure DC resistance but the buffer circuit has a low out *impedance*, which refers only to AC current. A DC blocking capacitor in the output buffer circuit would explain the 1MΩ resistance. Can somebody with a DC multimeter and a Cutlass plug in a cable and measure the resistance? I am currently re-wiring my Cutlass and can't do it myself. @beej? Thanks.

Hi all,

1. Getting the truss rod to the 0.15 clearance leaves very little room in bridge saddles, as I have to get them pretty much all the way down to get 1.5mm from 12th fret to the string (and that's measured with the first fret pressed).
2. Another issue that I discovered while adjusting the truss rod is that when I get the clearance right on the bass side, the treble string has pretty much no clearance, meaning the neck is ever so slightly warped.

1. Not uncommon. My Cutlass is like that too. This is not an issue if we can achieve the action and playability we require. If it becomes an issue, simply adding a shim to the pickup end of the neck pocket will cure it. A piece of business card will do the trick nicely. I have a small stock of old Paris metro tickets that I use for my clients. Neck shims are often part of a good setup with bolt-on neck guitars. Every manufacturer of bolt-on neck guitars uses them, at all price ranges. Music Man sell shims from their website if you want to have the factory ones.

2. There is no way of knowing if this was in this condition from the factory, wood can always settle into its final shape some months after construction. But also note that In my experience this is actually not uncommon but most people never measure the neck relief on the treble side and so never notice. But again, if we can achieve the playability we want this is not at all a problem.

But absolutely the biggest gripe I have with this guitar is the humbucker. I've been going back and forth with the music man support to figure out if there's anything wrong with it, but honestly I'm loosing faith they will help, which is why I'm also writing here, thinking I couldn't be the only one. Essentially what I complained in my original NGD post is still a thing. I'm not sure if it's something with my humbucker or if this is how it's supposed to be, but it in no way matches the sound of the single coils. The neck single is so much snappier, has more attack, more bass+treble, and what's most weird is it has more output. When going from neck single to bridge humbucker, it feels like pure mud.

Yes, the neck single coil has a completely different frequency response and will indeed seem like it has a lot more bass and treble. That is totally normal. Humbuckers and single coils have completely different construction, physical and electrical characteristics, and these ones are in different places on the guitar. The humbucker will be very mid range focused in comparison to the neck single coil. And your soundcloud clip sounds just fine to me.

From reading your original thread, once you accounted for cable length the Cutlass humbucker and EVH humbucker are not dissimilar in output and frequency content and you said it sounds really good compared with the EVH bridge humbucker. So it seems possible to me that you are just one of those many people in the world that don't like humbuckers and single coils in the same guitar. (Me, I'm the opposite, I hate bridge single coils - too thin and sharp, and I like the difference between a neck single coil and bridge humbucker).

But you should be able to get the humbucker louder overall than the single coil despite that. But without the guitar in front of somebody knowledgeable on a bench to test, I don't think it's possible to diagnose if there is an issue here, especially as everything else seems to check out just fine.

The new HT SSS would be interesting, but I doubt MM would be interested to sell me a loaded pickguard with them.
They might do, though it's early days with a new product and it may not be possible for some time yet, but feel free to ask them!
 

milosjak

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Thanks for all the responses guys!

From reading your original thread, once you accounted for cable length the Cutlass humbucker and EVH humbucker are not dissimilar in output and frequency content and you said it sounds really good compared with the EVH bridge humbucker. So it seems possible to me that you are just one of those many people in the world that don't like humbuckers and single coils in the same guitar. (Me, I'm the opposite, I hate bridge single coils - too thin and sharp, and I like the difference between a neck single coil and bridge humbucker).
Yeah, that is totally true. Just for reference I went back to the wolfgang, and those pickups are even muddier to me now. Which is when I realized that I'll probably get nowhere in trying to "fix" the humbucker, as that's just the sound of it, and it seems like I have just gotten used to the snap and response of the single coil.

But you should be able to get the humbucker louder overall than the single coil despite that. But without the guitar in front of somebody knowledgeable on a bench to test, I don't think it's possible to diagnose if there is an issue here, especially as everything else seems to check out just fine.
Now that's the only thing that is still keeping me wondering whether there's something wrong with it still or not. The thing is, it's always evident in the waveforms in my daw that the single coil is a few db louder.

I would go to a tech to check out the pickup but I wonder if they'll just think I'm crazy... Which is why I'm trying to diagnose it a bit on my own before I commit to it. I'm not sure if I can check anything (I'm handy with multimeter) that could potentially prove that there's perhaps something wrong with the inner coil of the humbucker.
 

milosjak

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They might do, though it's early days with a new product and it may not be possible for some time yet, but feel free to ask them!
Who should I contact about this? By the way, any spec on these? As in impedance, magnet type etc?
 

DrKev

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I would go to a tech to check out the pickup but I wonder if they'll just think I'm crazy... Which is why I'm trying to diagnose it a bit on my own before I commit to it. I'm not sure if I can check anything (I'm handy with multimeter) that could potentially prove that there's perhaps something wrong with the inner coil of the humbucker.
If there was something wrong with one coil of a humbucker I would expect it to sound brighter, not darker. And you are measuring the correct DC resistance for the humbucker, which suggests that the coils are just fine. You can try to take the cover off and measure each coil but it's a lot of work that almost certainly won't help you.

One thing I don't recall addressing is the wiring of the parallel resistor on the 5-way switch. It should only be in circuit when the single coils are in use (positions 2-5). If the switch was mis-wired, the humbucker will see a lower resistance to ground. That would drop the output and the treble content a little (really "a little", not a lot at all) but it's worth checking. See the diagram below, the resistor should be soldered to two lugs on one side and the common lug on the pickup side, and nothing else.

Specs for the HT pickups, I don't have access to that data, you'll have to ask Customer Service.

Honestly, if you don't get any further with this, I suggest replacing the humbucker with the humbucker of your dreams. Many people replace stock pickups (including me). If you don't get along with something you have, get one that does what you need.

Screen Shot 2022-11-19 at 23.36.12.png
 

beej

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@DrKev - I measure about 1M on mine as well. Same thing from the buffer of the Luke. Seems normal.

With regards to the humbucker, it sounds normal to me. It's supposed to be different than the single coils. Personally I didn't love it, either. So I agree with Kev- put something you like in there :)
 

milosjak

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One thing I don't recall addressing is the wiring of the parallel resistor on the 5-way switch. It should only be in circuit when the single coils are in use (positions 2-5). If the switch was mis-wired, the humbucker will see a lower resistance to ground. That would drop the output and the treble content a little (really "a little", not a lot at all) but it's worth checking. See the diagram below, the resistor should be soldered to two lugs on one side and the common lug on the pickup side, and nothing else.
Thanks Kev, I'll check it the next time I change strings, as I've already put one set to premature demise when I was measuring the pickup impedances.
I'm guessing this resistor is responsible for having singles see 250k and humbucker see 500k through volume pot?

@DrKev - I measure about 1M on mine as well. Same thing from the buffer of the Luke. Seems normal.
Thanks for confirming this.

Honestly, if you don't get any further with this, I suggest replacing the humbucker with the humbucker of your dreams. Many people replace stock pickups (including me). If you don't get along with something you have, get one that does what you need.
With regards to the humbucker, it sounds normal to me. It's supposed to be different than the single coils. Personally I didn't love it, either. So I agree with Kev- put something you like in there :)
Yeah, I think that's probably going to be the ticket. To be honest, there's probably an interaction with the Marshall Astoria Custom that's causing this missmatch for me. I think the lower output and the snappiness of the single coils slices through this amp more easily than the higher output of the humbucker which probably just compresses the amp more and then loses the volume as well.

So what do you guys suggest for a snappy humbucker with a pronounced attack, that doesn't have much lower mids that would muffle it like the current pickup. I'm guessing something lower in output than the current one - maybe something like a Bare Knuckle VH2? I'm eye-ing Bareknuckles as they seem to offer the option of having a black pickup cover with black screws, so I can maintain the original look of the guitar.

Thanks all, once again.
 

DrKev

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Thanks Kev, I'll check it the next time I change strings, as I've already put one set to premature demise when I was measuring the pickup impedances.
I'm guessing this resistor is responsible for having singles see 250k and humbucker see 500k through volume pot?
Yes.
So what do you guys suggest for a snappy humbucker with a pronounced attack, that doesn't have much lower mids that would muffle it like the current pickup. I'm guessing something lower in output than the current one - maybe something like a Bare Knuckle VH2? I'm eye-ing Bareknuckles as they seem to offer the option of having a black pickup cover with black screws, so I can maintain the original look of the guitar.
I was going to suggest something DiMarzio in their vintage output range but the VH2 seems like a fine choice! Note that it is possible to take the cover off of the original humbucker and re-use it. It's just held on with rubber double sided tape. Took me 15 mins of pulling and tugging and then it came free. The stock Music Man humbucker pole piece spacing is 53mm, which is good match for the Bareknuckle spacing of 52.9 mm. If it doesn't fit perfectly first time a little work with a fine cut round needle file, or rolled up piece of fine sandpaper will make it work.
 

fbecir

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Hello Milos

To have a different output for each pickup can be a good thing.
For instance, you can use your low output pickup during the verse & chorus of the song, and for the solo you use your high output. With just your guitar and without using a pedal, you can do the job !

Kevin and beej are right : if you don't like a pickup, just change it. There are plenty of pickup makers, thus plenty of choice. Recently, I bought a Bare Knuckle Boot Camp True Grit ZEB 53 for an non EBMM guitar and I am happy with the result. If you like single coils, this pickup is good also when split.

François
 

beej

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To have a different output for each pickup can be a good thing.
For instance, you can use your low output pickup during the verse & chorus of the song, and for the solo you use your high output. With just your guitar and without using a pedal, you can do the job !
100%
 

Norrin Radd

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The best HB I’ve found for that bridge position in an HSS config has been the DiMarzio Injector bridge pickup. That’s right - another single coil - but with some punch. It took me many years to learn but I am just NOT a HB guy. Can’t do it. The ONLY one I like is the DiMarzio PAF Pro. Who knows? - you might turn out just like me! But going on that journey (and developing your ear to uncover/discover what YOU love) is where all the fun is. Welcome to the rabbit hole! ;)
 

Ted

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I found the pics of your Blue Magic BFR Cutlass and it's very nice looking. That finish is beautiful. I'd like to see more pics.


I've noticed some similar cosmetic issues on my Valentine BFR Pine Green regarding areas where the finish is a bit orange peely/not buffed completely in some spots--very minor and only visible in some lighting. Also between the bridge and the strap pin there is a spot where there is a very slight circular depression that can be seen in certain light. I wonder what caused it. I happened to watch a factory tour video that showed how guitars are put onto a CNC machine or whatever and I saw a guy take a rubber mallet and whack the body really good to get it to adhere to the machine-- and I wondered if doing that can dent the wood-- the size of the indentation is about the diameter of a rubber mallet. So that's maybe something in the production process that should be reconsidered.

Aside from some of these small issues on mine, I do find the paint job to be really incredible overall. The color and metallic character of the finish (it's not billed as a "sparkle" finish, but when sunlight or stage lighting hits it, the overall effect is stunning). Music Man has the most aesthetic finishes IMO. When I'm not playing my Valentine, I find myself gazing at it for hours. Haha. Best guitar I've ever owned and easily the prettiest too.

As far as pickups go, I can't speak to your technical specs but I've been doing a massive writing/demo recording project where I've written and recorded over 50 new song demo tracks in the past 50 days with the goal of having 75 in 75 days. Over 95% of all the guitar tracks recorded have been done with the Valentine-- I think I used a Tele on one track for a neck single coil tone that the split humbucker on the Val couldn't quite nail and one track with a Strat for some trem. I played a Vader with a bridge humbucker on one harder edged track.

Last night I grabbed one of my old standby HH guitars and went for the bridge with some high gain and it just sounded so flat and sterile to me. I think I've gotten so accustomed to single coils and cleaner/medium gain sounds that humbuckers don't do it for me now-- although I'm liking the jazzy neck HB on the Valentine-- so glad it's splittable for the middle position. I've been planning on getting an Albert Lee HH at some point but I don't know if an HH guitar is gonna "wow" me tonally anymore. A bridge humbucker is still useful for me in a lot of situations but it's not as stimulating to my ears.

Not to detour your thread but the single coil bridge pickup in the Valentine is becoming my favorite pickup ever in a mix. It's so punchy and dynamic. I played a used Cutlass HSS in a shop once and I really liked the bridge pickup sound that it had and I loved the feel of the guitar overall too-- which led me to buy the Valentine without trying one first. But I think I'm getting to a place where my own personal tastes are leading me to prefer single coils over humbuckers-- which surprises me-- maybe you're getting to a similar place sonically.


Cheers,

Ted
 
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milosjak

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I was going to suggest something DiMarzio in their vintage output range but the VH2 seems like a fine choice! Note that it is possible to take the cover off of the original humbucker and re-use it. It's just held on with rubber double sided tape. Took me 15 mins of pulling and tugging and then it came free. The stock Music Man humbucker pole piece spacing is 53mm, which is good match for the Bareknuckle spacing of 52.9 mm. If it doesn't fit perfectly first time a little work with a fine cut round needle file, or rolled up piece of fine sandpaper will make it work.
Ah right, I guess that would make it look original, although I am a bit worried that I'll mess something up... I might even go for just the regular uncovered black bobbins with black screws instead...

To have a different output for each pickup can be a good thing.
For instance, you can use your low output pickup during the verse & chorus of the song, and for the solo you use your high output. With just your guitar and without using a pedal, you can do the job !
Makes sense, although I'm unfortunately not that kind of player. I'm either on the neck or the bridge exclusively when dirty, depending on what the track asks for, and also in between for cleans. The part where the difference in level/attach response annoys me is when I switch between bridge and neck during solos. I do rely a lot on rolling the volume knob for different levels of gain though.

One thing I've done since my last response is going back to the absolutely clean channel of my marshall JVM and trying to mess with the new found balance between the height of the whole pickup compared to the height of the pole pieces. I managed to get the pickups to balance nicely on clean by getting the whole pickups just high enough so those muddy mids from the inner coil give me enough of the body, and then going with the pole pieces up the rest of the way. I'm actually kinda happy now with how it sounds even back on my marshall astoria gained up, although I will need a bit more time with it.

Thank you guys for all your helpful responses. I will definitely need to try things out and see. Even though I very much like the attach on the neck single coil and the overall sound, I wouldn't be surprised if a bridge single would just be too much. Maybe I just need a slightly brighter, slightly snappier, and perhaps a bit lower wind of a humbucker. As Norrin said, it sure is a rabbit hole.
 

DrKev

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Ah right, I guess that would make it look original, although I am a bit worried that I'll mess something up... I might even go for just the regular uncovered black bobbins with black screws instead...
The cutout is larger for covered humbuckers. An uncovered pickup in there may not look great. Personally, I love the covers that bareknuckle do. It won't look exactly the same but it will be great.
 

milosjak

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Personally, I love the covers that bareknuckle do. It won't look exactly the same but it will be great.
I saw they've got a black cover for a humbucker, but to me it looks like it's matte rather than glossy? It may actually work better with my matte black hardware...
 

milosjak

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The stock Music Man humbucker pole piece spacing is 53mm, which is good match for the Bareknuckle spacing of 52.9 mm.
On this topic - how do you know the spec for music man is exactly 53mm (and not 52.9 perhaps)? And also, what dimensions should I look out for. I see BKP for example have "normal" and "wide" for two different dimensions documents. Does it even matter if I won't be trying to reuse the cover of the original pickup?
 

DrKev

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I know because 1) I have measured to put a different cover on my own Cutlass humbucker, and 2) Music Man told me. :)

Short answer: You want the wide spacing.

Long answer: Back in the late 50s Gibson humbuckers had a narrow spacing and that was the default for quite some time. Fender single coils had a wider spacing. When people starting putting humbuckers in the bridge positions of strat-style guitars with wider string spacing at the bridge, pickup manufacturers started offering that spacing too so the pole pieces line up better under the strings. Many call it F-spacing, Seymour Duncan calls it a "trembucker". It makes almost no difference to the sound if the pole pieces and strings don't line up well but it looks odd. So most guitar manufacturers using a vibrato/tremolo bridge use use bridge humbuckers with the wide spacing. But there are variants. DiMarzio are 51 mm, Duncan 52.6 mm, others are 52.8 mm, Bareknuckle went with 52.9 mm, Lollar and Music Man decided on 53 mm.

So, if you want to reuse the Music Man cover you have to choose a brand that offers the spacing that's close to that (and Bareknuckle is). If you don't want to reuse the Music Man cover you can choose whatever you like, but a wide spacing will keep the pole pieces under the strings.
 

milosjak

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OK, that makes perfect sense to me.

I've pinged the bare knuckle guys as well, and asked them for a suggestion on which pickup to choose based on my explanation on the troubles I've got, without stating any preferences I may have, and I've been told either VH2 or Riff Raff, although when I sent the clip showing the sounds I'm currently getting, the Riff Raff was then proposed as a final pick.
I may just bite the bullet and get it with a sating black cover. If I really hate how it looks I might and try to do something with the original cover, although this guitar already has a mix of satin black (trem, back plate...) and gloss black (pickups, knobs, tuners) etc.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out, especially for the cover removal part. Cheers.
 
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