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Pablo

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Joined
Sep 21, 2006
Messages
431
Location
Galten, Denmark
Was that when Luke was sportin' the Richard Simmons Perm? :p
Absolutely ;)

If it's one of the real old-school Valley Art Lukes (from before the Samick and later Gibson takeover), I congratulate you on an amazing find and an amazing guitar! Older guitars sometimes need a bit of TLC to perform, but with a real Valley Arts, you know it'll be worth it.

Cheers

Eske
 
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Dakbri

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
13
Location
Wilmington, NC
Absolutely ;)

If it's one of the real old-school Valley Art Lukes (from before the Samick and later Gibson takeover), I congratulate on an amazing find and an amazing guitar! Older guitars sometimes need a bit of TLC to perform, but with a real Valley Arts, you know it'll be worth it.

Cheers

Eske
Pre Samick....it's a Custom with the graphics
 

uvacom

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Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
272
See, I don't like to ask a processer to do a ton of things at once...so let's say for example, and I may get techie here, but I'm using a 24 bit processor chip. And I ask it to do 1 thing...delay. It is putting all 24 bits into that one effect. Cool...Even if I ask it to do 3 or 4 things...still, 8 to 6 bits in each effect. Now I'm asking it to do eq, delay, chorus, emulate a amp, emulate a cab, ...still on the same chip..that's alot. So the older one does less, but it sounds better to me.

I have to admit I giggled when I read that. :)

You may like the older Pod better and that's totally valid, but it has nothing to do with the number of simultaneous effects it can run, nor does it have to do with the bit depth. With all due respect, your idea of how a Pod works is anything but "techie". Don't get me wrong, the great thing about modern computing is that you don't have to have any idea how it works in order to use it. That's why computers are so powerful. Hell, most computer programmers actually have little to no idea how a processor does what it does, because they code in an HLL like C++. It's like magic, and it's great, but it does lead to some huge misconceptions about how the whole thing works.

Okay, from the top, a processor doesn't assign a certain number of bits to one process, a certain number to another, it just doesn't work like that. "bit" actually means very little - the number of "bits" something has can mean a lot of different things. In this case, the 24 bit processing in a Pod actually refers to the bit depth of the audio stream. It defines the dynamic range (i.e. how much headroom is available). Internally, a Pod XT has an 80-bit fixed-point accumulator, and can handle 32/40 bit floating point math. The earlier Pods probably have similar specs as it regards "bits", because most embedded systems are designed around similar families of DSPs, and most DSPs work relatively similarly anyway. Basically, the number of bits defines how many numbers are contained in a single instruction or datum.

But none of that really matters, because it all has to do with the precision in a single instruction. Believe it or not, a Pod actually can't do 7 things at once. It can do exactly one thing at a time, and that's usually performing some math operation or moving a number from one place to another. It just does these things so quickly that it seems like it's all happening at once, because the audio stream only needs to be updated like 48,000 times per second, and the Pod can do, let's say 400 million things per second. And many of those things it does in 1/400,000,000 of a second are mathematically the equivalent of more than one thing per second done by a general-purpose CPU, because DSPs are designed to be very, very efficient at exactly the kinds of things the Pod does to a guitar's signal.

What's handy about the Pod is that it's very optimized, so they know exactly how many cycles any given operation will take. Based on that, they can figure out how many algorithms you can run at once (each processing block can be considered an "algorithm"). For example, the EQ is probably a biquad filter, the cab simulation is a convolution engine, etc. To reiterate, from the processor's standpoint, it's not all happening at once. Everything happens one tiny step at a time. It just looks like it's all happening at once to you. What that means is that if you only run one thing at once, it's not devoting all of it's power to that one thing, it just means that you're actually only using a fraction of it's power and most of the time, that DSP is doing nothing.

The moral of the story? Trust your ears. You really don't understand anything about how that little red reniform box does what it does, and you don't need to. But please don't just guess. It makes engineers giggle, and we sound horrendous when we do that, and we tend to snort. :)
 

Chris G

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
56
Location
Oxford, UK
That's a great explanation - it's why some of the effects in the Pod sound like engineers giggling.
 

ba2m

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
413
Location
jakarta, indonesia
@uvacom and dakbri
thx you for the explanation of POD, btw i think you have very good knowledge of how effects sounds. Do you also write something (sound effects related) somewhere in this forum?or somewhere in the internet.. i'd like to know the link please.. i really need to improve my knowledge about effects and sounds, thx

btw Dakbri, does the art valley ROBOT has the same neck shape with the ebmm LUKE? it's v shaped and it has very small fretboard..
 

Dakbri

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
13
Location
Wilmington, NC
I have to admit I giggled when I read that. :)

You may like the older Pod better and that's totally valid, but it has nothing to do with the number of simultaneous effects it can run, nor does it have to do with the bit depth. With all due respect, your idea of how a Pod works is anything but "techie". Don't get me wrong, the great thing about modern computing is that you don't have to have any idea how it works in order to use it. That's why computers are so powerful. Hell, most computer programmers actually have little to no idea how a processor does what it does, because they code in an HLL like C++. It's like magic, and it's great, but it does lead to some huge misconceptions about how the whole thing works.

Okay, from the top, a processor doesn't assign a certain number of bits to one process, a certain number to another, it just doesn't work like that. "bit" actually means very little - the number of "bits" something has can mean a lot of different things. In this case, the 24 bit processing in a Pod actually refers to the bit depth of the audio stream. It defines the dynamic range (i.e. how much headroom is available). Internally, a Pod XT has an 80-bit fixed-point accumulator, and can handle 32/40 bit floating point math. The earlier Pods probably have similar specs as it regards "bits", because most embedded systems are designed around similar families of DSPs, and most DSPs work relatively similarly anyway. Basically, the number of bits defines how many numbers are contained in a single instruction or datum.

But none of that really matters, because it all has to do with the precision in a single instruction. Believe it or not, a Pod actually can't do 7 things at once. It can do exactly one thing at a time, and that's usually performing some math operation or moving a number from one place to another. It just does these things so quickly that it seems like it's all happening at once, because the audio stream only needs to be updated like 48,000 times per second, and the Pod can do, let's say 400 million things per second. And many of those things it does in 1/400,000,000 of a second are mathematically the equivalent of more than one thing per second done by a general-purpose CPU, because DSPs are designed to be very, very efficient at exactly the kinds of things the Pod does to a guitar's signal.

What's handy about the Pod is that it's very optimized, so they know exactly how many cycles any given operation will take. Based on that, they can figure out how many algorithms you can run at once (each processing block can be considered an "algorithm"). For example, the EQ is probably a biquad filter, the cab simulation is a convolution engine, etc. To reiterate, from the processor's standpoint, it's not all happening at once. Everything happens one tiny step at a time. It just looks like it's all happening at once to you. What that means is that if you only run one thing at once, it's not devoting all of it's power to that one thing, it just means that you're actually only using a fraction of it's power and most of the time, that DSP is doing nothing.

The moral of the story? Trust your ears. You really don't understand anything about how that little red reniform box does what it does, and you don't need to. But please don't just guess. It makes engineers giggle, and we sound horrendous when we do that, and we tend to snort. :)
I'm glad you giggled. While you may be correct about how most didgi processors use info, you are way off about how did modeling uses it...but I'm guess thats why I worked for a company that was the forefathers of digi modeling..because I make people giggle. Now that you've had a chuckle, if I may have my say...
Does it make you feel good to come in a spout your techno babble to try to make someone else look bad? I explained how I felt and what I knew about a product I was associated with and was responsible in helping develop...now, if you WORK for Line6, please PM me so we can discuss this further, as I probably know you, and will more than likely ask you what the hell your problem really is...Nice to know you are an engineer. I answered the man's question way better than you ever could, even if you were right. See, part of my job was to de mystify our product and explain it to the common guy, because the engineers were so geeky and never got laid that they had no idea how to do it...another thing I like about engineers and explaining, is that they have no concept of warmth, roundness....just tech babble. So I'll try not to get techie anymore, since you think I'm wrong. Nice to know we are all entitled to our opinions...next time you wanna impress a chick, though, I'd pick a better conversation...most chicks aren't impressed with gear talk
 
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glockaxis

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Messages
1,582
Location
SoCal
Dakbri, so what you are saying is that the POD 2.0 is a more true sounding modeler than the XT? I currently have an xt but would be willing to check out the 2.0 (w/o upgraded software) if you strongly suggest it.

Also, are you currently involved in any modeling technology now with different companies?
 

Sub1 Zero

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Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
2,159
Location
Tulsa, OK
Ahh guys this isn't worth getting pissed... this thread needs some fart jokes, pronto
mehr66.gif
 

uvacom

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
272
<snip>Nice to know we are all entitled to our opinions...next time you wanna impress a chick, though, I'd pick a better conversation...most chicks aren't impressed with gear talk

Damn, you caught me. That was all to impress a chick. :rolleyes:

Look, I'm just sharing a little bit of knowledge. I'm sorry if you're offended that I pointed out how far off base you really are (employment with Line6 notwithstanding), but I wasn't trying to insult you. Misinformation doesn't do anybody any good. I think I addressed you with courtesy, and your response (while fairly incomprehensible) is mainly comprised of ad hominems. Insinuating that I don't get laid? Come now. You can ignore me if you don't appreciate my input, but when your reaction is to insult me, you only make yourself look bad.
 

ba2m

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
413
Location
jakarta, indonesia
why don't we just open a new POD/PODXT/digital effects modelling thread? since this thread is about OLP and musicman luke.. and i will loveeeeeee to read that new thread(since i really want to know about how that magic digital effects and modelling works..)
 

Jimmyb

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Joined
Dec 17, 2005
Messages
2,562
Location
Cheshire, UK
I like guitars and fluffy kittens.

Here's me thinking that the digital modellers contained mini amps...
 
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