Question of the Week For BP

[SteveB]

Not entirely... I heard he does appearances at parties for a small fee

hahaha! The only way you could come up with that picture so quickly.. is if it happened to be your desktop wallpaper! But I digress.. I do love your humor, Bef.

Back on topic (sorta), I've got a local music store with a NOS SUB1 guitar, and a SUB StingRay (I think).. not sure is active or passive. They have a used SUB bass right now as well. They have a wicked sale beginning this Friday, too. PM me if you want the store's phone #. I believe they'll ship anywhere in the USA.

 

[the unrepentant]

Yeah the sub was great for the money, most likely because as BP said, they were losing $100 on each one they made, but i can't fault them for trying, they still made a fantastic instrument!

And i see where you guys are coming from, get someone to make something a bit better than what OLP were making, but not quite as good as the sub, more affordable. Though as jack said, i've heard that OLP basses have good bang for their buck (though they apparently had sloppily dressed frets).

I'd like to see where this goes though, a copy of the sterling could interest me, as you may be able to tell, i'm on a bit of a budget.

 

[metal_terrorist]

Not to be obtuse or anything, but I don't see the point (at least from a buyer's perspective. From EBMM's perspective I can understand it.) of an OLP-type bass. I'd much rather have a "real" MM like the SUB if I was looking for a "lower end" MusicMan than an imitation like an OLP. I'd rather pay a bit more for the real SUB, rather than pay $200 for something that looks like an MM but has nothing in common with the real thing.

Or am I just missing something here?

I completely agree. I think the average consumer, the ones that would actually buy an OLP ( I'm assuming OLP is nowhere near the same quality as a real MM, I've never touched one ) would just end up associating that level of quality ( or lack there of ) with actual MusicMans and just abandon the whole brand name in search of something 'good' at some point. Maybe I'm old fashioned but even when ESP brought out the LTD line I felt they took a step down. I'm sure their custom shop is still as good as it ever was but how many people associate ESP/LTD with cheap 'metal' guitars? I imagine most people do. I think some of the high end LTD's are nice but compared to MM's they pale. I know having a seperate brand name like OLP/LTD is intended partly to disassociate the good stuff from the 'econo' stuff but deep down you gotta wonder...

 

[oli@bass]

how many people associate ESP/LTD with cheap 'metal' guitars?

Raising hand...

Music stores tend to rather put ten OLP/LTD/MIMs on the wall than two EBMM/ESP/MIAs. It get's hard to get hold of the real thing. Starters will mistake the crappy copies for the originals, and then move on to some brand that's not "watered down" this way.

I wonder... it wasn't necessary to do all that copy stuff twenty years ago, why is it so important today... why do people actually fall for those copies...

 

[Big Poppa]

Ok

OLP was supposed to provide an entry level 4+2 and 3+1 headstock...that is where the money and market is....that is why all of the copies are in that price point....not a coincidence..They dont say lets rip music man off...get a dart board and lets play a game...."we will put random prices and the one that gets the most darts is where we go!" SO lets not argue where the first price point is....

Regarding OLP quality it was all over the board much to my disapointment...(why do you think I cancelled the deal?) The irony is that the last batch were made in Korea at a higher price point due to the sub leaving the markiet and they were truly great....to good but too late.....

 

[Kristopher]

I appreciate the fact that when I see a bass with that oval or round pickguard, I already know it's a quality instrument made in the USA. There's nothing stopping anyone from putting out a $200-$300 instrument with a MM-style humbucker (or two) with the same pickup placement as a MM. What these cheap copies really want is to have the MM look (pickguard, tuner arrangement, etc.), which to me (and, I'm sure, a lot of people) means quality.

Problem is, that quality image the copies want to associate with their instruments goes down with the more cheap copies that get made. For me, personally, not having a lower cost alternative makes me a more proud owner. I suppose this has nothing to do with playing music, or being creative... I admit there's a collector quality to the amount of basses I own. It's a fun thing to do. Anyway....

I fully understand that I have no choice in what gets decided - it's not my place.

 

[Big Poppa]

but you really cannot be so eliteist that you would deny someone an approved cheaper version....IF you dont desire it fellas, maybe someone else less fortunate can get close and work theri way up

we have had about a dozen threads about olp introducing players to us

 

[bovinehost]

Yup, and while I have just recently been called elitist (for playing Music Man, mind you), I've often thought about exactly this concept. When I was twelve, fifteen, those years, I couldn't afford a "brand name" bass. I would have given my left nut for something like OLP.

Remember what we had way back then, you old geezers? I know BP does. I'm sure Chuck Ward remembers.

And we are not representative of the vast majority of players.

I had pangs when I saw my first OLP; maybe I am a bit elitist. All those Fender copies, all those cheap Gibson knockoffs, but my beloved Music Man? Never! But you live and you learn and if you don't, then you're making a mistake.

Just saying, folks - people have learned to tell a MIM Fender from a MIK Fender and a Squier from an MIA. A Skyline from a USA Lakland. OLP has its own market, and mostly the customer does know it's not built in SLO. OLP is, to some extent, 'established'.

Fear not, fellows.

 

[oddjob]

Jack and BP hit it right on the head... I work with 12-15 year olds everyday. Of my 110 kids about 20 of them play. How many have an instrument that I would play now... none. Am I a music snob... no, I have a job and can afford what I have and I am proud of it. My kids choose their instruments for 2 reasons (and pretty much ONLY 2 reasons): looks and price. What can they get their hands on that is cool and won't break the bank. Some are stepping to that next level that involves tone and playibility, but most aren't there and won't be there for some time.

Do I look down at them because their instruments aren't on par with mine... hell no. I admire their passion to play, their love of the music, their wanting be something more. OLP serves/d that niche (2 of my kids have OLPs). They like what they have and WANT to play them. You know what, good for them.

Now do I wish they had something better... yeah, but that will come with time and experience. Does that make me elitist??? I don't know, but I have think back to what it was like when I started in '86. I got a zebra striped P-bass copy for $200 (still have it too ) - why - it was cheap and looked cool. That entry instrument got me in the door and served its purpose for about 5 years. Some 50 basses later, it is 1 of 3 basses I always "picture" myself with. It brought out the passion and my willingness to play. If an OLP can do tha then amen!

Say what you want, there is a market for entry level instruments and if something can be done to represent EBMM's place in the market, it can only be a good thing.

 

[Kristopher]

Yeah, I guess it's a bit of an elitist stance to take... I know I could never afford a MM when I was younger.

 

[oddjob]

Yeah, I guess it's a bit of an elitist stance to take... I know I could never afford a MM when I was younger.

I don't know if that is elitist though.... it is pride (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I know exactly where you are coming from (I would probably have had a heartattack over an OLP Bongo) but the market is there and is it a bad thing?

 

[cky4ever]

Speaking of OLP and outsourcing I have something that might interest you all. In my country Dominican Republic I have seen a musicman copy. An SR5. korean made. Excellent quality. Quality comparable to japanese copies of american instruments back in the 70s. I was going to buy an SR5 (dark blue with black p/g). it was 13mil pesos or about 380 dollars. Heres the low down on it. As far as physical qualities go Id give it a 8 out of 10 compared to real MMs. Electronic wise, just as versatily 6 out of 10 because they do hum some. Nothing an eq pedal or good amp wont suppress. I imagine they arent licensed. I HAVENT HEARD ANYTHING HERE. SO HEADS UP BP and BOVINE. Im going to run down to the music store and try to get pics if its still there because i imagine it is.

I almost bought it and was going to dstock it with a bart and bart preamp because of how hard it is to get a MM down here. I ended up flying to FL and bass central and bought two music mans. 30th sr4. 20thsr5 hh. 4 yrs of savings but these are lifetime instruments.

 

[carpedebass]

I completely agree. I think the average consumer, the ones that would actually buy an OLP ( I'm assuming OLP is nowhere near the same quality as a real MM, I've never touched one ) would just end up associating that level of quality ( or lack there of ) with actual MusicMans and just abandon the whole brand name in search of something 'good' at some point. Maybe I'm old fashioned but even when ESP brought out the LTD line I felt they took a step down. I'm sure their custom shop is still as good as it ever was but how many people associate ESP/LTD with cheap 'metal' guitars? I imagine most people do. I think some of the high end LTD's are nice but compared to MM's they pale. I know having a seperate brand name like OLP/LTD is intended partly to disassociate the good stuff from the 'econo' stuff but deep down you gotta wonder...

I have an ESP B206 which is truly an LTD that you speak of. Trust me, it isn't just you. I honestly prefer a six string bass because I have big hands. I really used to like playing the ESP. I have paid thousands before for "boutique" basses that didn't play as well as, or sound as good as the ESP. Now I 'm seriously thinking of selling it. It never gets played anymore since I got my EBMM SUB5.

BTW...I read you guy's posts and see how many EBMM basses you have and I wonder how you can afford it? You all must be rich! The biggest majority of players...even serious players who play for a living, do not have such expensive instruments. I work for a radio station that is a ministry. I do not make much money, but I want to break into the music business someday...hence I figured I would need a really good bass to do it. I sold my old broke down boat to afford my SUB 5 even though my car is on it's last leg. I struggled with buying a bass or getting some repairs done on my car. In the end I figured I could walk to work if the car dies. I seriously considered an OLP because I knew that it was licensed by EBMM. Therefore it had to be good! I could afford the OLP and car repairs. I decided to go with the SUB to be sure.
My honest opinion...to a point we care more about our tone and instruments than the people that will hire us. They care more about our ability to hear and keep a solid sonic foundation.
Sorry for going "stream of conciousness" there...

 

[danomar]

but you really cannot be so eliteist that you would deny someone an approved cheaper version....IF you dont desire it fellas, maybe someone else less fortunate can get close and work theri way up.

Agreed. I think many in the forum forget that we own the real deal. We are the converts who do not need to try a Stingray, Bongo, or Sterling to decide we want that feel and tone. It makes sense to have a less expensive line to any product that will lead up to higher price-point purchases.

I got my OLP to have an inexpensive practice bass. It does the job, better than most other inexpensive basses. I do not expect anything more from it. I have read about wildly disparate quality in OLPs and, though I never saw it, agree that spotty quality is more damaging to reputation than having inexpensive instruments.

Don't hate the OLP. Love the Stingray.

 

[pudgychef]

Agreed. I think many in the forum forget that we own the real deal. We are the converts who do not need to try a Stingray, Bongo, or Sterling to decide we want that feel and tone. It makes sense to have a less expensive line to any product that will lead up to higher price-point purchases.

I got my OLP to have an inexpensive practice bass. It does the job, better than most other inexpensive basses. I do not expect anything more from it. I have read about wildly disparate quality in OLPs and, though I never saw it, agree that spotty quality is more damaging to reputation than having inexpensive instruments.

Don't hate the OLP. Love the Stingray.

I think BP and others nailed it and this is a great added point. A solidly built licensed copy will allow youngsters or guys with limited cash to get something closer to their 'dream' bass. It can't help but build brand loyalty (like MIM Fenders or Squires) and in the end would (imho) lead to more EBMMs being sold. I also agree that it is nice to have a bass you can leave (worry free) at a practice space that is reasonably close to your main/gigging bass.

 

[oli@bass]

Did anyone ever consider that NOT being able to get a copy of something for cheap makes it much more desirable. If everybody and their brother plays those cool StingRay copies, how cool will it then still be to play the real thing?

Also, IMO, from a customer perceptive it's better to have copies that are NOT licensed, because if they are of shady quality it will not be associated with the original.

Moreover, what will licensed copies do to the resale value? If you want to sell your EBMM, the prospective buyers will tell you that they can get a NEW licensed copy for half of what you want for your used one...

I don't know. I'm not a fan of copies of anything which has a unique brand image.

 

[Big Poppa]

oli what the heck are you talkng about.....

 

[Old_Guy]

Interesting discussion, and I've enjoyed it. Let's look at marketing:
I think we can all agree with BP's statement (if I have it right, and its 1st year business school stuff) that if he doesn't (eventually) offer a lower price point instrument he's going to get ripped off by unauthorized posers while leaving money on the table.

I gather the two major tasks for the planners are: How to leverage the brand equity of EBMM without diluting it and the economics of producing this product, that is, What are the cost drivers that can be favorably manipulated with the minimal impact on final product quality/features.

None of us knuckleheads here (with notable exceptions I'm sure) can talk about influencing and controlling cost drivers (other than the obvious - foreign labor), but we can all probably pass our opinions on maintaining yet leveraging brand equity. The notable parallel business model, "Squire by Fender,” is somewhat confusing, and I don't know how successful they are with that line. A ten cent consultant would have that report as a starting point.

If we all can agree that "less affluent & younger purchasers" buy based on looks and price (read user reviews on any major retailer's website), I suspect key decisions would include:
- Would the unique headstock be featured in this product line? That's the EBMM equivalent of the Mercedes hood ornament.
- Would it be branded as a Music Man or as a _______ by EB?
- Derived from that, Would it be a radically different product or a less expensive alternative (aka SUB, with less body work, fewer options?) to the SR or Sterling?

I would suggest that the less affluent & younger purchasers are looking for the headstock and the general appearance of the SR and Sterling? Inescapable conclusion. This almost forces EBMM to rebrand this product line as a "WorkingMan by EB" (not to be confused with the amplifier company's flat black product line). Don't say Korea, China, Djibouti and don't say "student" or "entry level." My two cents.

Far as foreign labor goes - I've spent far too much time in Korea, the Philippines and Africa for my own good; but I'd point out that the Ethiopians do some pretty astounding things given materials and equipment; and lots of the currently fashionable woods come from Africa these days anyway. My two cents, I'll shut my pie hole now.

 

[Old_Guy]

oli what the heck are you talkng about.....

Sir, I believe he's trying to encapsulate "perceived value." Several thousand years ago when I was in business school....Wolfschmidt Vodka and Smirnoff were priced identically. Wolf dropped their price to increase sales - believing there was a straight line correlation between price (down) and sales (up). Apparently this was one of the major business blunders of the 20th Century. Nobody's seen Wolfschmidt Vodka since.
Or in knucklehead terms, "hey it costs more, must be better."

 

[boristhespider7]

I think there should be NO other lower-end or entry level version of the genuine MM product whether it be a SUB, OLP, or a new model called "Mongoose." Quite frankly, every time I see an IMITATION Stingray or Sterling, it makes me cringe. MM is NOT Fender and there is really no need to cheapen the brand by making Squier-like instruments. A genuine MM should be what young bass players strive for. If you can't afford it now, TOO BAD! Drool over it at the store, save your money (a good lesson in disciplined saving) and get it when you can afford it! There is no good reason to have cheap versions of the real deal (and I don't think that starting with the cheapo model necessarily leads to one buying a real MM in the future - you find something else you like eventually). I may sound harsh, but I'd like to see no imitation versions of MM instruments whatsoever.