how do YOU spell relief?

[Musiksketcher]

Great info from you all! This was meant to share various view regarding how we each achieved desired feel on our axes. Everyone asks how to set up, but seldom why they do it a certain way. Feel free to chime in. And again thanks!

 

[GHWelles]

to clarify.. i find at higher fretboard action basses tend to "sing" better..at lower action they tend to have a slightly thinner sound. imo. regarding string tension, i find certain settings make the strings tension feel more firm, and other settings add more flexibility. perhaps it's symantics, but these are my findings over 30 yrs and as many basses. i just have little opportunity to queery other bassists on their findings. thanks for your reply.

I find the same thing with guitars.

 

[mynan]

Where does 1/4" come from?

Care to share your computations?

1/4 inch = ridiculously high action.

Since you brought Hooke's law into the conversation, maybe I should be asking you for your computations. You are talking about the force needed to fret a note and the difference in that force created by the difference between high action and low action.

The factory spec for action is 3/32 at the 12th fret. Personally, I would consider low action to be 2/32. I would consider 5/32 to be high action. Granted, there is a difference in force needed to fret the string. I don't, however, believe that the difference is noticeable, in terms of force, to most players.

It is more likely that the difference is more noticeable because the time it takes to move the string from the open position to the fretted position has increased, causing it to feel more cumbersome...not by the amount of force needed to fret the note.

 

[maddog]

1/4 inch = ridiculously high action.

I asked how Hooke's law doesn't apply in the region less than 1/4" of an inch.

Since you brought Hooke's law into the conversation, maybe I should be asking you for your computations. You are talking about the force needed to fret a note and the difference in that force created by the difference between high action and low action.

The factory spec for action is 3/32 at the 12th fret. Personally, I would consider low action to be 2/32. I would consider 5/32 to be high action. Granted, there is a difference in force needed to fret the string. I don't, however, believe that the difference is noticeable, in terms of force, to most players.

It is more likely that the difference is more noticeable because the time it takes to move the string from the open position to the fretted position has increased, causing it to feel more cumbersome...not by the amount of force needed to fret the note.

going from 2/32" to 5/32" of an inch you have more than doubled the force required to fret the string. Assuming a fixed spring constant of approximately 7.5 pound/in, F_1 = 7.5lb/in*0.0625" = 0.46875lb, F_2 = 7.5lb/in*0.15625" = 1.171875lb, greater than a 100% change.

I'm not sure that a player that can't sense a change in the force required to fret would be able to sense the change in time a 3/32" delta creates.

edit: got a spring constant from running some experiments on the E string.

 

[mynan]

Again, not saying that there isn't a change...just not noticeable in terms of force.

 

[maddog]

so you're saying you can't tell the difference between half a pound and one pound?

I guess I'm sensitive. I've played some high action basses and found it rather hard.

 

[mynan]

so you're saying you can't tell the difference between half a pound and one pound?

I guess I'm sensitive. I've played some high action basses and found it rather hard.

I find it more difficult to play "high action" basses too, but not because of the added force it takes to fret the note. It's because I have to compensate for the time it takes from when my finger hits the string to when the string hits the fret.

 

[LoEnd]

Well.....for me (like the rest of you) I like a very low action, as low as I can get it with no frett buzz. Really, I can't tell a difference with tone with high action, I would think that the higher the strings are away from the pu the weaker/thinner the sound would be coming through the amp. just my 0.02.

 

[maddog]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing... ;^)

If your action is high enough to noticeably increase the tension in the string when you fret a note, then you'll notice the note going sharp a lot more than you will notice the difference in tone. The "x" in Hooke's Law is the difference in length of the string or spring, not the sideways displacement, i.e., you've got to look at it as a right triangle with the string as the hypotenuse. Do the math {hyp = sqrt (a^2 + b^2), where a= the displacement and b= the distance from bridge to fret}. How much farther {as a ratio of (hyp-b) to b} do you stretch the string when the action is a little higher compared to the straight line distance from the bridge to the fret? Not much.

yep, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The ratio between the two displacements and the length of the string could be considered "not much". In this case, what ultimately decides "not much" is how much the delta between the displacements affects tension ultimately affecting pitch change. So you've got a good start there. It'd be great to see your thought finished through.

 

[ggunn]

I asked how Hooke's law doesn't apply in the region less than 1/4" of an inch.



going from 2/32" to 5/32" of an inch you have more than doubled the force required to fret the string. Assuming a fixed spring constant of approximately 7.5 pound/in, F_1 = 7.5lb/in*0.0625" = 0.46875lb, F_2 = 7.5lb/in*0.15625" = 1.171875lb, greater than a 100% change.

I'm not sure that a player that can't sense a change in the force required to fret would be able to sense the change in time a 3/32" delta creates.

edit: got a spring constant from running some experiments on the E string.

But that is force required to fret the note, not tension in the string. Of course, we all know that higher action calls for more force to fret a note, but wasn't the original premise about a difference in tone due to increased tension in the string due to higher action? That's not the same thing at all.

BTW, I don't think that Hooke's Law is applicable, anyway. It assumes a linear relationship between force and the stretching of a spring; the relationship between transverse force applied and displacement from rest of a stretched steel string is not linear.

 

[maddog]

But that is force required to fret the note, not tension in the string. Of course, we all know that higher action calls for more force to fret a note, but wasn't the original premise about a difference in tone due to increased tension in the string due to higher action? That's not the same thing at all.

My original hypothesis to the change in tension the original poster discussed was due to the larger displacement required of higher action.

My original hypothesis to the change in tone was due to the pickup height not being adjusted to the new string height.

BTW, I don't think that Hooke's Law is applicable, anyway. It assumes a linear relationship between force and the stretching of a spring; the relationship between transverse force applied and displacement from rest of a stretched steel string is not linear.

From some simple spring gauges I have laying around, the strings seem to follow a linear rule. Double the displacement and the gauge shows double the force required. /shrug.

 

[ggunn]

yep, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The ratio between the two displacements and the length of the string could be considered "not much". In this case, what ultimately decides "not much" is how much the delta between the displacements affects tension ultimately affecting pitch change. So you've got a good start there. It'd be great to see your thought finished through.

Well, OK. Say you are talking about 1/4" action at the 12th fret of a 34" scale bass. The base of the right triangle is 17 inches and the height is 1/4 inch. When you fret the note you stretch the string to SQRT((17^2)+(.25^2)) = 17.00184 inches. Now assume that you lower the action to 1/8 inch. That makes the stretched string length SQRT((17^2)+(.125^2)) = 17.00046 inches. The difference is 0.00138 inches - about a thousandth and a half, or about 1/8 the diameter of the typical guitarist's high E string. I doubt you'd be able to detect the difference with a quartz tuner, maybe not even with a strobe tuner; I submit that that qualifies as "not much".

 

[maddog]

so, how much have you increased the tension?

and, how much sharper is the instrument now?

 

[ggunn]

so, how much have you increased the tension?

and, how much sharper is the instrument now?

Well, think about it. Move your bridge saddle either way by 1/1000 inch. Can you hear the difference? I doubt it. How much do you have to change the tension with the tuner to compensate? I doubt you (or I) could make so small an adjustment.

 

[maddog]

I've always had to re-intonate every time I've raised or lowered the saddles. /shrug.

well... until now that I have a fretless.

 

[Jimmyb]

Whatever happened to Dr Hook?

 

[Musiksketcher]

maybe he's in prison for underage solicitation? (" she was only sixteen")

 

[ggunn]

I've always had to re-intonate every time I've raised or lowered the saddles. /shrug.

well... until now that I have a fretless.

We don't need no intonation
We don't need no fret control

;^)

 

[strummer]

Well, OK. Say you are talking about 1/4" action at the 12th fret of a 34" scale bass. The base of the right triangle is 17 inches and the height is 1/4 inch. When you fret the note you stretch the string to SQRT((17^2)+(.25^2)) = 17.00184 inches. Now assume that you lower the action to 1/8 inch. That makes the stretched string length SQRT((17^2)+(.125^2)) = 17.00046 inches. The difference is 0.00138 inches - about a thousandth and a half, or about 1/8 the diameter of the typical guitarist's high E string. I doubt you'd be able to detect the difference with a quartz tuner, maybe not even with a strobe tuner; I submit that that qualifies as "not much".

This is great, I love a good physics fight!
If you care to calculate, I bet you could find how much you need to turn a puning peg to stretch the string that much, right?

 

[strummer]

I find it more difficult to play "high action" basses too, but not because of the added force it takes to fret the note. It's because I have to compensate for the time it takes from when my finger hits the string to when the string hits the fret.

Really? Since I can't calculate worth sh*t, I'll just offer my thought on this, ok?
I have basses set up with high action, but I have never ever considered the lessened playability as an effect of having to compensate my timing. It does feel a lot stiffer to press down, and thus harder to play, but either I am subconsciously compensating for the time difference or I am lightning fast pushing the strings down because an experiment where I played the same bass line twice shows no lagging whatsoever of the recording of the high action bass.

You bright young lads can no doubt calculate the time difference, but the question would be if the time difference is more or less than 1/2 pound?