Off Topic Black Clouds and Silver Linings

[whitestrat]

well, for what it's worth, metal IS claustrophobic by design.

You'd classify Nightwish, Kamelot and Symphony X as claustrophobic?

 

[francric]

I don't know what album your listening to but for those of you who are saying this album is one dimensional, strictly metal and non emotional, you are all on CRACK! Listen to the music............................

 

[YtseJam92]

Wow, just sat down and listened to the entire thing through, and all I can say is wow. This album is amazing.

 

[the24thfret]

I think DT haven't put all their talent, knowledge and experience behind a single album or song yet.

I think that's a bit harsh, WDaDU, Images+Words, SFAM, they are all amazing albums that DT put years of work into. They went through a lot of serious soul searching with those albums and the material was better because of it. I think that may be a key difference here actually. I feel like since making ToT they just kind of put albums out with whatever they come up with and don't make hard decisions or review anything after they write/record it.

But DT has been losing me since 6DOIT which, to me, was their last really great album that represented their capabilities and versatility.

Also the lyrics on this album (minus Count of Tuscany) are terrible. Sounds like something I would've written at 14. They need to take a look at what made their lyrics great on previous albums.

Elsewhere... anyone else feel like the last two tracks pull a lot of direct Rush influence?

 

[the24thfret]

I'll add one more thing. MP has complained before in interviews about fans trashing albums and stuff because they feel like they haven't been catered to in the latest release. He's said he tries not to listen to "hardcore fans'" attitudes anymore because they just want DT to remake Images and Words. I hate that attitude. It's all constructive criticism if you're willing to listen. And you can disagree. But don't tell fans not to critique your albums.

 

[bkrumme]

I'll add one more thing. MP has complained before in interviews about fans trashing albums and stuff because they feel like they haven't been catered to in the latest release. He's said he tries not to listen to "hardcore fans'" attitudes anymore because they just want DT to remake Images and Words. I hate that attitude. It's all constructive criticism if you're willing to listen. And you can disagree. But don't tell fans not to critique your albums.

Would you cater to fans or would you write the music you want to write? And if someone tells you your new music sucks because it's not what they wanted, would you listen? Sorry, but it's hardly constructive criticism. Who wants to listen to a 3-year-old whine to his mommy about not getting candy at the grocery store? It's the same concept.

I respect your opinion of the record. If you don't like it as much as another DT album that's your opinion and you have the right to express it. That doesn't mean you have the right to be heard. That's the choice of the person you're addressing.

 

[ProtoChicken]

I think fans of all bands tend to fickle, but I've never understood DT fans at all, and I've been a fan since 1992. I can't think of another band that's fans seem to complain about a band as much as DT fans do. It seems like the band just can't win. They are either too metal, too prog, or not metal enough, or not prog enough.

 

[bkrumme]

I think fans of all bands tend to fickle, but I've never understood DT fans at all, and I've been a fan since 1992. I can't think of another band that's fans seem to complain about a band as much as DT fans do. It seems like the band just can't win. They are either too metal, too prog, or not metal enough, or not prog enough.

Yeah. Add don't forget James is getting fat...

 

[ProtoChicken]

Yeah. Add don't forget James is getting fat...

and bald too

 

[Dante]

You'd classify Nightwish, Kamelot and Symphony X as claustrophobic?

lionel, when i say metal, i mean metal! like anyone born in 84: thrash metal! is nightwish really metal at all? (no joke, i really don't know NW)

@rocketralf: yeah. it's like they're not unleashing all they could let loose.

@24fret: just because you know some 50 different scales doesn't mean you need to use them all the time or in the same song. versatility is great, but not at the cost of the song. and if a band profiles itself as metal, then maybe it's a good idea to stick to your guns. as far as Mike telling people not to criticize their stuff... you know, alot of people still want clapton to go back to doing what he was doing with cream.

i wonder if i will like it even more or if it will fade. but right now, i think it's the most musical DT album yet.

 

[the24thfret]

Would you cater to fans or would you write the music you want to write? And if someone tells you your new music sucks because it's not what they wanted, would you listen? Sorry, but it's hardly constructive criticism. Who wants to listen to a 3-year-old whine to his mommy about not getting candy at the grocery store? It's the same concept.

And, respectfully, I disagree. I respect the fact that they don't cater to these fans who seem to be perpetually unhappy with the direction of the band. It's not the fans' choice what the band does... the band decides, that much is obvious. My point above was that MP seems to outright dismiss their opinions anymore instead of even being willing to listen. Like I said, he and the band can completely disagree, but I've heard him go as far as basically write off the opinions of some of these more long-term fans. I think any good band is willing to take criticism from a producer, fans, or their grandmothers. It's their decision whether or not to follow the criticism/advice. So in my opinion it is constructive criticism typically because these fans liked something about the band in the first place and they typically care about the band.

 

[Dante]

And, respectfully, I disagree. I respect the fact that they don't cater to these fans who seem to be perpetually unhappy with the direction of the band. It's not the fans' choice what the band does... the band decides, that much is obvious. My point above was that MP seems to outright dismiss their opinions anymore instead of even being willing to listen. Like I said, he and the band can completely disagree, but I've heard him go as far as basically write off the opinions of some of these more long-term fans. I think any good band is willing to take criticism from a producer, fans, or their grandmothers. It's their decision whether or not to follow the criticism/advice. So in my opinion it is constructive criticism typically because these fans liked something about the band in the first place and they typically care about the band.

i think it's great people get so passionate about it. but too much input will seed doubt. no one should ever make music with the thoughts of others in their minds.

 

[Ricman]

This all stems from the virtuosity of the band members I think. They can make ALL types of music - hell look at the albums they've covered in concerts and released as Official bootlegs. I don't know of any other band that does this. They've also had a lot of direction shifts in their career. All this seems to encourage fans to to try to steer them to the "genre" they prefer from DT. But in the end they are creative musicians. I buy their CDs to be inspired buy their creativity. They need that freedom.

 

[edrod]

In my opinion, this is why I love Dream Theater so much. I never get bored and don't know what to expect. I like every single album they make. I prefer some songs more than others.

Many people fail to see the different forms of criticism. People are very rude and come out as ignorant when criticizing at times (I am not talking about this forum). Youtube is a great example. I am not saying youtube users are the biggest and most intelligent critics out there.

The way I feel is if I do create something and I put all my effort, dedication, and passion; it will hurt me to hear somebody trash it. People can be cruel and many bands just prefer to ignore "these type" of fans. Dream Theater does what they love and will continue to do so.

One example for me is Metallica. They have gone through different changes in styles, genres, etc etc. I won't like, I don't like the last 2 albums but I don't put too much thought into it. They inspired me a lot and I will be eternally grateful for that. There are fans and critics who just take things too far and can be hurtful when reading their criticism.

I think that if you don't like what they are creating, just don't listen or maybe you can make something "better." I am not talking to anybody from this forum directly. This is just my 2 humble cents.

 

[joe web]

back from the concert in munich. what an awesome show DT did today.
sad that they only played "a rite..." but it kicked more as on CD.

i got my limited box yesterday and found one of 100 silver lining tickets inside, so i had the meet and greet today with the band as well.
i can´t tell you, how happy i´m at the moment.
btw. mike portnoy said, that i was the first guy with those silver lining ticket and everybody of the band wanted to see my ticket. that was really cool.
the band signed both backplates of my 7 and 6 sting petruccis - which wasn´t planed this way. i gave the plates to john for signing and jordan grapped it as soon as john finished, after that john myung grapped it and so on. at the end, all bandmembers signed both plates - how cool is that.

and btw. the new Dargie Delight 2 is an awesome looking guitar!

 

[ScoobySteve]

I share an extent of both 24th and Bk's sentiments and all of Ed's statements.

I really do admire the continual evolution of their style, sound and musical writing abilities. It's staggering, and it sincerely is wonderful to see a band who wishes to challenge and push themselves. Keeps me on my toes!

Similarly to BK's thoughts, I agree that the band should evolve as they see necessary and desire to do so. It's what they want to do, so I say, more power to them.

However with that said I feel nothing is as black/white as we assert them to be and share 24th's sentiments when it comes to feeling alienated by the band members. I remember reading a transcript of that interview MP made and it kinda cut for the fans. Cause while they were staying loyal music and staying underground, it was us the fans, that spread the love around. Who brought and converted other fans on the premise of good music. Of course all musicians should feel the artistic freedom to pursue their endeavors in the means that they feel necessary, but alienating the fans who helped them arrive at this point is not cool. Whats wrong with criticism? Sure there are some IAW loyalists who want nothing but IAW replicants, but there are also true Dream Theater fans who feel they have a right to constructively analyze the music they're listening to. There's nothing wrong with conveying what you feel to be a weakness in a particular song or album, when its expressed as your opinion. We're not asking DT to hand the reins to the fans, just saying the last album wasn't my cup of tea.

I for one love the new album, but I feel that the lyrics could have used more polish. As 24th mentioned earlier it did feel, at times, rigorously elementary. And I say that to suggest that DT should give that criticism some thought, not in a way that I suggest I can do it better, but its an area that could use improvement, and the fans would delight to it.

My 2 cents.

 

[the24thfret]

One example for me is Metallica. They have gone through different changes in styles, genres, etc etc. I won't like, I don't like the last 2 albums but I don't put too much thought into it. They inspired me a lot and I will be eternally grateful for that. There are fans and critics who just take things too far and can be hurtful when reading their criticism.

That's a good example. Metallica has lost a lot of fans during the last nearly 30 years (wow), but they've also gained a lot. But we can all be thankful that previous albums aren't removed from the shelves when a new one comes out. When Load came out, And Justice For All wasn't deleted from existence. If you like the old stuff... keep listening to it. That goes for any music, any band.

joe_web, super cool stuff there man!

 

[Warg Master]

I might have to pick this up on the way home from work!!! Man, I neeeeeed it!

 

[RocketRalf]

24thfret, I agree with most of what you've said. Sorry if my comment came out negatively. I love DT, they're by far my favorite non academic (classical) artist, and I LOVE SFAM, It's probably my favorite album ever. My comment was meant to be the opposite. Take SFAM and all it's greatness that I admire. Still to me it had it's flaws: it was poorly mixed, the songwriting was inconsistent, etc. Now, I believe that is about 75% of what DT could produce if they gave it their all on all fronts: songwriting, performance and production. That shows I have great faith and admiration for them!

BTW I share the though that the lyrics on the last few albums have been a huge letdown. That's the first thing they need to improve.

 

[ProtoChicken]

Though I've professed my love for the new album in this thread, I also think it
would be interesting to see the band give another shot to working with an outside producer again at some point in the future. I think the same reasons that Portnoy has given for being scared at what an outside producer may do to their sound could also lead to some interesting possibilities.