Question Compensated nut and alternate tunings

[Kinjin]

From what I've read, the compensated nut is really great for standard tuning. For alternate tunings, would the compensated nut be.... umm... "less than optimal"? Would it be a good idea to change out the compensated nut on a guitar that is always kept in an a non-standard tuning?

It's late, I'm coming down with a cold, and I'm suddenly curious.

 

[Mariner-aaron]

Good question I always to to perfect 4ths. I haven't noticed an issue myself but that jus tuning the B, E to C, F. Cuts the learning down a 3rd.


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[DrKev]

It's not a problem. Even with non-standard tunings the EB compensated nut is better than a standard nut (which of course still works pretty well, right?). You can relax, there is no need to worry about it.

 

[kbaim]

I think a bigger issue for alternate tunings is if you have a trem.
If you don't, you should be good to go.
But its harder to lock in other tunings with trem equipped, especially floating from my experience

 

[Rialas]

Never quite understood the point of compensated nut.
Each key played requires different compensation only possible on a violin.

I guess some chords may sound better?

 

[Spudmurphy]

Guitars have been designed with frets that provide a tempered tuning in mind - otherwise to meet the requirements of people with super bat hearing the guitar would have to have fanned stepped frets - you can get them!!

 

[DrKev]

Guitar strings are compensated usually just at one end, at the bridge saddle. When we fret a note the string is bent slightly sharp. Lengthening the string at the saddle helps to compensate for that sharpness compared to the ideal fret position. The problem with that is that the open string is now slightly flat which compounds some of the tuning issues that musicians with fine ears notice on chords with open strings. Nut compensation is a further correction which brings the open strings into better tune with fretted notes.

Is it necessary? 99% of all recorded guitar music is done without nut compensation. But many of of us who can hear the difference swear we'll never go back! I love it.

Talking about different keys is confusing this type of compensation with other issues. Icidentally, all instruments with notes of fixed pitch (guitars, pianos, sax etc.) are designed to equal temperament tuning, which makes all notes identical in all keys (e.g. A# and Bb are always the same frequency irrespective of what key you are playing. It is itself a compromise but ensures that pianos players don't have to re-tune all 220+ string just to go from C major to Eb major. 99% of all recored music is recorded with equal tempered tuned instruments.

 

[Rialas]

Guitar strings are compensated usually just at one end, at the bridge saddle. When we fret a note the string is bent slightly sharp. Lengthening the string at the saddle helps to compensate for that sharpness compared to the ideal fret position. The problem with that is that the open string is now slightly flat which compounds some of the tuning issues that musicians with fine ears notice on chords with open strings. Nut compensation is a further correction which brings the open strings into better tune with fretted notes.

Is it necessary? 99% of all recorded guitar music is done without nut compensation. But many of of us who can hear the difference swear we'll never go back! I love it.

Talking about different keys is confusing this type of compensation with other issues. Icidentally, all instruments with notes of fixed pitch (guitars, pianos, sax etc.) are designed to equal temperament tuning, which makes all notes identical in all keys (e.g. A# and Bb are always the same frequency irrespective of what key you are playing. It is itself a compromise but ensures that pianos players don't have to re-tune all 220+ string just to go from C major to Eb major. 99% of all recored music is recorded with equal tempered tuned instruments.

When you press the string at the 12th fret, the change in pitch is marginal.

Isn't the compensation at the bridge required because of the different gauge of strings?

 

[DrKev]

When you press the string at the 12th fret, the change in pitch is marginal.

Not as marginal as you might think. You can test it very easily - adjust the saddle positions so the length of each string is the same and equal to exactly twice the distance from the nut to the 12th fret (which is the theoretical position of the saddle without compensation). Hear how badly chords sound when the open strings are perfectly tuned? Test the 12th fret harmonic against the open string or 12th fretted note. It's pretty ugly.

Isn't the compensation at the bridge required because of the different gauge of strings?

Yes but not just gauge. Remember that pitch is a result of a combination of three things - tension, length, and gauge. With standard tuning and the gauges of guitar strings in most standard sets, the thicker strings are at lower tension than the thinner strings of the same type (i.e. wound or plain). This is why, for example, the high-E string is so much harder to bend than the G string. Now, here's the important point...

Lower tension strings go out of tune more for a given change in tension or length than higher tension strings.

This is why chords cannot stay in tune when using a whammy bar. The strings are different tensions and the lower tension strings go out of tune more. And this why we see the staggered compensation that we use at the saddle - the thicker strings are lower tension and are therefore change pitch more when we push the string to the fret. Therefore, thicker strings require the greatest amount of compensation.

 

[Rialas]

Not as marginal as you might think. You can test it very easily - adjust the saddle positions so the length of each string is the same and equal to exactly twice the distance from the nut to the 12th fret (which is the theoretical position of the saddle without compensation). Hear how badly chords sound when the open strings are perfectly tuned? Test the 12th fret harmonic against the open string or 12th fretted note. It's pretty ugly.

Yes, I know it sounds terrible, you misunderstood me, I was referring to the change in pitch when we press a note to fret it.
As most of us with good instruments have very low action, the pitch change would be marginal.

power tension strings go out of tune more for a given change in tension or length than higher tension strings.

This is why chords cannot stay in tune when using a whammy bar. The strings are different tensions and the lower tension strings go out of tune more. And this why we see the staggered compensation that we use at the saddle - the thicker strings are lower tension and are therefore change pitch more when we push the string to the fret. Therefore, thicker strings require the greatest amount of compensation.

I agree with all this, but I still don't believe that's the reason we have a compensated nut.

I believe it's to make the chords ring in a more "pure" tuning, compensating for the different temperaments.

Some people tune their guitars to achieve a similar thing to the compensated nut. Imo.

 

[Viv]

IMHO compensated nuts do have a slight advantage over non compensated .. however the height of the strings over the first fret is the all important. Check the string slots at the nut. If too high the open tuning may be ok but the notes on frets 1 - 5 will be sharp.