Difference in Adjusting Neck Relief for EBMM Guitars?

[MarkF786]

I've noticed EBMM's recommended method for measuring neck relief is very different than other guitar manufacturers (or experts like Dan Erlewine) - and if you follow EBMM's directions, it results in MUCH more relief then when following the more typical method.

To summarize the difference, EBMM recommends to fret the sixth string between the 2nd & 12th frets and measuring the relief at the 6th fret, while the more common method is to fret the string between first and last fret, and measuring at the 8th fret - and there's a HUGE difference between the results.

Is there a difference in EBMM's necks that leads to the different recommendations? What method do you use?

I just measured the relief using both methods, though using a 12" and 18" straightedge for even more precise results, and if I follow EMBB's method, I have .011" relief, but then following the Fender / Erlewine method, it's .024"!!! I've never seed recommended relief above .014".

P.S. For further details if interested:

EBMM's directions:

"First, check relief in the neck by holding the lowest (bass) string down on the second fret with your fretting hand, then hold it down on the 12th fret with your right thumb and tap on the string in the middle to show how straight the neck is. It should be no more than the thickness of a thick business card." Note, a business card is about 0.014" thick.

Fender's directions (which match Dan Erlewine's, though he recommends using a straightedge from the first to last fret, which is more accurate than using the string):

"Affix a capo at the first fret and depress the sixth string at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret". They recommend 0.10" relief.

 

[dean701]

I'm not sure where that document originated but this video is the standard for all my guitars

I do mine where I have almost no relief. Just enough to hear the string tap but not much more

However, after performing truss adjustments if a string buzzes on an open string to the 5th fret and no higher, more relief is needed. If there is more buzz from the 5th to the 12th fret, the neck needs to be straighter. If buzzing happens throughout the neck, the saddle height needs to be increased
There are of course other factors like level frets, string gauge, tuning, neck angle.....but the above is a good general strategy.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Measuring between the first and last fret honestly doesn't make much sense, as the portion of the neck that is part of the neck joint is really not going to have much relief in it. I have always measured relief by fretting the 13th and 1st fret and checking clearance at the 5th fret. I use the tap visual and tap method because I can't really be bothered to break out a feeler gauge for something like that.

 

[xjbebop]

1st to 12th fret is the truss rod 'relief' area, 12th to the bridge is effected by bridge height... typically...

 

[DrKev]

The further apart the frets are you choose to measure with, the bigger the measurement will be. Does it matter? No, not really, it just makes it difficult to compare measurements between different methods. So just choose one method for your instruments and do that. Figure out what neck relief works best for you, measure it up and off you go.

I learned and recommend (because it was most commonly recommened by many guitar manufacturers): hold string/capo at 1st fret, hold string at 17th fret (the 'body' fret), and measure at 7th fret. Somewhere in the 0.006" to 0.010" (0.15 mm to 0.25 mm) region works great for most people.

Also, while a straight edge is possibly more accurate than a string in good condition at tension, it's not really necessary because our precision is more limited by the difference between adjacent feelers gauges in the set, and our ability to use them.

I never liked that green polo short. I don't know why I chose it that day.

 

[tbonesullivan]

1st to 12th fret is the truss rod 'relief' area, 12th to the bridge is effected by bridge height... typically...

This is what I was told as well. The neck joint is kind of a fixed point, and honestly all of the pictures you see of how relief works focus on the neck, and not on how the neck relates to the body. This is probably one of he better pictures I have seen, and illustrates why you really don't get much out of relief measuring frets above the 12th.

 

[MarkF786]

I have an engineering background, and as a hobby have been doing guitar repairs and modifications for 25+ years - granted, probably on only about 100 or so guitars. I have a ton of tools from StewMac and elsewhere, have a small library of books on the topic, etc. It's rare I buy a new guitar that I can't greatly improve with a good setup. So I'm not an inexperienced kid who bought his first guitar.

My point was simple: 1) I've never encountered this method of measuring relief, and 2) if you follow this method (for example, using a "business card" or anywhere near that amount of relief), you'll end up with WAY too much relief as compared to common recommendations. So this led me to wonder & ask if there was something different about EBMM's neck design - which it turns out there's not (at least in this regard).

I agree that most of the relief is in the first 12 frets, and this approach would be valid IF the recommended amount of relief were reduced. For example, having now setup the guitar following the more common method with 0.10" relief, if I measure it following the EMBB method there's 0.05" relief, a third of the recommended "business card".

I ultimately proceeded to setup my new Stingray II following the more common method, which works well. With my existing St. Vincent BFR and Stingray 5 Special bass, I just set them up like any other guitar without ever looking at EBMM's FAQ. It was because my Stingray II's factory setup wasn't good (action was high and intonation was way off) that I thought to read what EBMM's recommended setup specs are - which led to this confusion for me. TBH, with the level of EBMM's craftsmanship, I'm surprised they're not more precise in their recommended setup specs; come on, give me an actual measurement rather than a "business card".

Otherwise, I love EBMM's guitars - well, except for not having enough break angle on the G string, leading to ringing behind the nut, which seems to be a common problem based on some googling

 

[MarkF786]

I'm not sure where that document originated but this video is the standard for all my guitars

That video is hilarious!

 

[DrKev]

I have an engineering background, and as a hobby have been doing guitar repairs and modifications for 25+ years - granted, probably on only about 100 or so guitars. I have a ton of tools from StewMac and elsewhere, have a small library of books on the topic, etc. It's rare I buy a new guitar that I can't greatly improve with a good setup. So I'm not an inexperienced kid who bought his first guitar.

My point was simple: 1) I've never encountered this method of measuring relief, and 2) if you follow this method (for example, using a "business card" or anywhere near that amount of relief), you'll end up with WAY too much relief as compared to common recommendations. So this led me to wonder & ask if there was something different about EBMM's neck design - which it turns out there's not (at least in this regard).

I agree that most of the relief is in the first 12 frets, and this approach would be valid IF the recommended amount of relief were reduced. For example, having now setup the guitar following the more common method with 0.10" relief, if I measure it following the EMBB method there's 0.05" relief, a third of the recommended "business card".

I ultimately proceeded to setup my new Stingray II following the more common method, which works well. With my existing St. Vincent BFR and Stingray 5 Special bass, I just set them up like any other guitar without ever looking at EBMM's FAQ. It was because my Stingray II's factory setup wasn't good (action was high and intonation was way off) that I thought to read what EBMM's recommended setup specs are - which led to this confusion for me. TBH, with the level of EBMM's craftsmanship, I'm surprised they're not more precise in their recommended setup specs; come on, give me an actual measurement rather than a "business card".

Otherwise, I love EBMM's guitars - well, except for not having enough break angle on the G string, leading to ringing behind the nut, which seems to be a common problem based on some googling

I agree, a business card is not useful, or is only useful as a "too much" gauge.

The G-string (and sometimes D-string) ringing behind the nut is common on g-strings across many guitar brands but it's fixable too. The G-string on strat style guitars has the smallest downward break angle to the tuner (unless there is a string tree present, which can cause tuning issues). Which means the angle to be filed in the nut slot, which is even smaller than that, can be tricky to dial in just right. Too little (or even negative) back angle and the string will ring in the nut like a sitar or vibration can pass through behind the nut. Too much back angle and there is not enough length of support for the string and that can lead to other noises, tuning issues, premature nut wear. It can be right in the factory and as the string settles or wears in with playing time, the problem shows. It's the kind of thing something with experience with nut files can fix without too much problem. I've fixed some in 10 seconds, and fought with others for days!

 

[Norrin Radd]

TBH, with the level of EBMM's craftsmanship, I'm surprised they're not more precise in their recommended setup specs; come on, give me an actual measurement rather than a "business card".

That’s because everybody’s preferred set up is different! What you’re asking is the same as asking for a recommendation for the same size of underwear for everybody.

I find setting relief is much easier when I use a notched straight edge. I know what I like. I turn that truss rod until the fret board is almost perfectly flat. I just want to see daylight barely peeking through on those middle frets and then I know I’m there. Somebody who likes higher action is going to hate my set ups. Just like I’m going to hate their giant underpants!

 

[ngjenkins]

That’s because everybody’s preferred set up is different! What you’re asking is the same as asking for a recommendation for the same size of underwear for everybody.

I find setting relief is much easier when I use a notched straight edge. I know what I like. I turn that truss rod until the fret board is almost perfectly flat. I just want to see daylight barely peeking through on those middle frets and then I know I’m there. Somebody who likes higher action is going to hate my set ups. Just like I’m going to hate their giant underpants!

I agree, what I'm finding is that it's different for each guitar (even between the same type of guitars, like my two Axis guitars have slightly different setups).

And I HIGHLY agree that a notched straight edge is the most reliable way to check relief across ALL of my guitars. Probably the best tool I ever bought.

 

[beej]

I find I’m often tweaking the relief on my guitars as the humidity changes. So I don’t take it so seriously- I just get it in the zone and adjust a 1/4 turn either way, as necessary.

It’s just one of those things you need to get used to doing. Like checking the tire pressure before I get on my mountain bike.

 

[nervous]

I find I’m often tweaking the relief on my guitars as the humidity changes. So I don’t take it so seriously- I just get it in the zone and adjust a 1/4 turn either way, as necessary.

It’s just one of those things you need to get used to doing. Like checking the tire pressure before I get on my mountain bike.

I am with you here. For me it's a quick point of reference to see where things are, that takes seconds. With that data point in my brain I have a pretty good idea of where I am headed to get to what I like/need. Guitars or basses the same, the caveat being that different guitars will tolerate different amounts and have limits. Once I have exhausted those I will always know what to tweak when needed. I think I am one that prefers a bit more relief than some, likely for the clarity it allows. I hear bass and guitar demo videos with all this noise and clank and it makes me crazy. And one other relief relayed bugaboo I run into is with too little, especially on bass with fresh rounds (see: DR High Beams, the clankiest damned bass strings I ever played), is something I call back buzz, where the string will clank and buzz behind the fretted note somewhere from that fret to the nut. Often across a few frets and more prominent when notes are hammered on (hammer-on-ed?). and while theoretically that wouldn't matter as the magic happened from the fretted note forward to the bridge but I can hear and feel that and it's just not right for me. So I will have to tune that out as well.

 

[dean701]

I am with you here. For me it's a quick point of reference to see where things are, that takes seconds. With that data point in my brain I have a pretty good idea of where I am headed to get to what I like/need. Guitars or basses the same, the caveat being that different guitars will tolerate different amounts and have limits. Once I have exhausted those I will always know what to tweak when needed. I think I am one that prefers a bit more relief than some, likely for the clarity it allows. I hear bass and guitar demo videos with all this noise and clank and it makes me crazy. And one other relief relayed bugaboo I run into is with too little, especially on bass with fresh rounds (see: DR High Beams, the clankiest damned bass strings I ever played), is something I call back buzz, where the string will clank and buzz behind the fretted note somewhere from that fret to the nut. Often across a few frets and more prominent when notes are hammered on (hammer-on-ed?). and while theoretically that wouldn't matter as the magic happened from the fretted note forward to the bridge but I can hear and feel that and it's just not right for me. So I will have to tune that out as well.

I have weather stripping touching my bridge springs to mute them and although I found these goofy when they came out, when I started hearing resonances in my recordings (for some guitars), these (or hair elastics) fixed everything else. I put mine above the nut, not on it.

Ernie Ball FretWraps by Gruv Gear

The Ernie Ball FretWrap by Gruv Gear is a professional string dampener/muting accessory that every studio, session player, and tapping aficionado should have! Slide on the FretWrap to effectively cut overtones and sympathetic resonance during recording, live performance, two-hand tapping, or any...

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[nervous]

I have weather stripping touching my bridge springs to mute them and although I found these goofy when they came out, when I started hearing resonances in my recordings (for some guitars), these (or a hair elastics) fixed everything else. I put mine above the nut, not on it.

View attachment 51331

Ernie Ball FretWraps by Gruv Gear

The Ernie Ball FretWrap by Gruv Gear is a professional string dampener/muting accessory that every studio, session player, and tapping aficionado should have! Slide on the FretWrap to effectively cut overtones and sympathetic resonance during recording, live performance, two-hand tapping, or any...

ca.ernieball.com

I see these a lot but never considered trying them.

 

[dean701]

I see these a lot but never considered trying them.

like I said, I thought they were a gimmick until I was quad tracking a guitar part one time and had to carve out a lot of high frequency noise. I grabbed one of my girls scrunchies and it fixed what I was hearing. A much cheaper solution: (and they fit better since they are much slimmer.)

 

[Astrofreq]

This is a really dumb question, but for the straightedge, is there something particular you use? I have a short metal ruler, maybe 6”. There could be something better for checking level frets and such.

 

[ngjenkins]

This is a really dumb question, but for the straightedge, is there something particular you use? I have a short metal ruler, maybe 6”. There could be something better for checking level frets and such.

Not a fan of using Amazon, but this is the one I use and it's perfect for $15. I couldn't find a price comparable version on StewMac or Sweetwater. Someone else chime in if you have better links.

Also, not a dumb question

 

[dean701]

This is a really dumb question, but for the straightedge, is there something particular you use? I have a short metal ruler, maybe 6”. There could be something better for checking level frets and such.

it would be better to use something full length. Even if you buy a cheaper one and the accuracy is questionable, you can check the accuracy against a granite countertop and make it exact with 3M stikit gold taped to the granite.
If you are into leveling frets yourself, then a fret beam serves the need for both sanding and as a straight edge.

 

[MarkF786]

This is a really dumb question, but for the straightedge, is there something particular you use? I have a short metal ruler, maybe 6”. There could be something better for checking level frets and such.

I have the 12", 18" and 24" straightedges from StewMac. They're very well made but overly expensive.

They also sell notched ones if you want to remove frets from the equation and just measure the straightness of the fretboard. I don't tend to be hard on frets, so rarely are they a problem for me - so I prefer the un-notched. I also have a StewMac fret rocker for the rare occasion when I encounter a new guitar with a bad fret.