agt
Well-known member
Good post, ShaneV. 
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Mowbrayster
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While I don't own one and have only recently played one I'll admit that I definitely had my doubts about EBMM guitars. But I've got to say that after having played one all my doubts have been washed away. I played a JP6 and Axis, and have never played a guitar with such comfort. The neck alone alone on both guitars sold me and that I NEED to have one.
KungFu Grip
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Funny thing. I don't consider my guitars to be "signature" guitars, even though two of them are. My buddy laughs at me when I tell him that I'm just not into signature guitars because of that, but to me the AL just feels like the perfect guitar, and the Morse is just a really different animal.
agt
Well-known member
Exactly. To me a "signature" guitar (at least in the sense it is being used in this thread) is a standard production model customized to the artist's preferences. The SRV strat, the Clapton strat, the Yngwie strat etc. Which is fine.
But the EBMM models are completely unique creations. I don't think of the Morse, AL, JP, or Luke as signature guitars. They are just brilliant, forward-thinking, and innovative designs, unconditionally.
But the EBMM models are completely unique creations. I don't think of the Morse, AL, JP, or Luke as signature guitars. They are just brilliant, forward-thinking, and innovative designs, unconditionally.
nobozos
Well-known member
Here's my viewpoint. I never knew Ernie Ball made guitars....basses yes, strings yes, guitars no. I mean I had seen the Axis before but i didn't know it was called that or who made it as I wasn't interested in it. But when I walk in to a guitar store I usually see all the other brands on the wall and even the EB basses, but rarely any guitars. I didn't even know that there was a JP6 guitar in existence until I was browsing another forum and a guy there posted a pic of his BFR JP6. I fell in love with the design instantly and it just looked like it would play amazingly. About two months later I stopped in my local small guitar store and he has a BFR JP6 on the wall so I play it, went home and sold my PRS and bought it the next week. Now I own nothing but JP6's and have passed on the opportunity of owning other guitars at great prices simply because I know they will not compare to the JP. I've owned lots of guitars from a lot of different manufacturers and was never really completely happy with the guitars I owned, even the REALLY expensive ones. Now I feel like I've found my "one" guitar and I have to thank that guy on that forum for posting his pics
I think this post speaks to my earlier point. Once someone has had an opportunity to actually see and play EBMM, they can feel the quality and playability.
Now, let me give you a specific example:
In our local EBMM dealer, there is a Benji Madden, a Rosewood Axis, a Morse Y2D, and a JP. Since this dealer obviously carries the higher price point guitars, they are hanging next to P**l R**d Sm**hs, F***ers, and other guitars in the same or higher price range. Due to brand loyalty, the desire to play what their idols play, or just plain ignorance, those EBMMs have been hanging there for awhile. From a dealer's perspective, if someone is looking at a $3200 guitar as opposed to a $1700 guitar, you're probably not going to try to talk them out of the $3200 one. That's a pretty tough obstacle to overcome.
So, how does EBMM get their guitars on the shelves where people can play them without dramatically changing their production methods and cranking out guitars like the others do? Assuming you can acheive that, how do you get people to try an EBMM as opposed to one of the other high-end, high priced guitars with bigger name recoginition?
I have an idea, if I may be so bold as to offer advice BP.
EBMM, without being pushy, could strongly recommend to it's dealers that they carry one each of the standard models of their guitars in their store, for the dealers that could handle that much of an inventory. I'm sure you guys know what colors/combinations sell the best. If, for instance, the best selling combination for the Axis is an Axis SS with a trem in the color Blue, that would be the one for Dealer stock. The guitars that dealers currently order may not appeal to the broadest possible customer base, so a little assistance from the manufacturer to the dealer may be necessary.
Phase 2 would be a congenial dealer education and communication program. Dealer reps maintaining pro-active, regular contact with the dealers may be helpful. Let's face it, many guitar stores employ people with their own preferences and opinions about brands. EBMM has to first convince the employees of the dealers of the superiority of the brand, before you can expect the employees to steer customers to the product. There are all kinds of things EBMM could do to acheive this. Factory tours for dealers, in-store seminars, EBMM sponsored guitar clinics, or promotional DVDs.
The regular communication with the dealers would breed familiarity with the employees, and once you have them on your side, they will probably steer people toward the brand. A great instrument speaks volumes, but a great insturment in conjunction with a great relationship is unbeatable.
BTW BP, my consultant fee will be one Axis, Solid Black in color.
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Hendog
Well-known member
As I said, I am not ripping on you signature owners. I bought a JP a few years ago not even knowing who he was. I was in the market for a higher end guitar and I played it and bought it on the spot.
I agree with your viewpoint ShaneV.
Dante
Well-known member
Probably the headstock and body shape. any serious guitar player will actually consider owning MMs for superior playing comfort (esp during long playing sessions) but the REAL fanboys with lesser tone-forming skills will stick to fender and gibson. that's why some people dislike MM chosen marzios. if you suck, it will show. then the remarks follow "too bright", "too brittle", "too thin". personally, i keep trying to get an even fatter, wider sound from my guitars. i got emgs in the morse, the 20th will soon follow and will get tuned down to standard B. but it's not all 1984 for me. i also have the ASS with mm90s, and this is the axe that tells me music man makes perfect stock guitars as well. it could make gilmour cry. but how do you sell something like an ultra-deluxe telecaster NO SHOP CARRIES????
I own 3 EBMMs and have owned another 2. one thing i've come to realise is that my musical tastes are very specific. i like metal, and very heavy too. there are many other brands which do make heavy metal guitars but the difference in quality and price is so huge, there was actually no reason to try anything else. but i have to admit, i did try one of those spiky Ibbies.
And i've come to realise something else: without experimentation you learn nothing. in 4 and a half years of playing, the morse is my ELVENTH guitar. after all this time, i figured out what makes my favourite "chunk" sound: tune-o-matic bridges. to you it might seem trivial but to me it's the difference between keeping a guitar or selling it (i sold my rad red JP6 because it wasn't ponderous enough).
But to someone who doesn't go that deep, or to someone who listens to clips off the net (without paying attention to the addition of effects or the subliminal effect of the demo'ers playing style), when they try a guitar out, it either works for them, or it doesn't. and if it's in the hands of someone who's already set on buying something else, it's never going to sound right.
sorry for the half random testament.
I own 3 EBMMs and have owned another 2. one thing i've come to realise is that my musical tastes are very specific. i like metal, and very heavy too. there are many other brands which do make heavy metal guitars but the difference in quality and price is so huge, there was actually no reason to try anything else. but i have to admit, i did try one of those spiky Ibbies.
And i've come to realise something else: without experimentation you learn nothing. in 4 and a half years of playing, the morse is my ELVENTH guitar. after all this time, i figured out what makes my favourite "chunk" sound: tune-o-matic bridges. to you it might seem trivial but to me it's the difference between keeping a guitar or selling it (i sold my rad red JP6 because it wasn't ponderous enough).
But to someone who doesn't go that deep, or to someone who listens to clips off the net (without paying attention to the addition of effects or the subliminal effect of the demo'ers playing style), when they try a guitar out, it either works for them, or it doesn't. and if it's in the hands of someone who's already set on buying something else, it's never going to sound right.
sorry for the half random testament.
Dante
Well-known member
And the whole BFR thing is brilliant cuz it puts EBMMs in the same price range as all the ripoffs while still offering pro quality at reasonable prices.
and maybe they should make really heavy heavy metal guitars so that people stop thinking that EBMM is a metal brand.
in my honnest opinion, i think alot of the guitar press is either biased or getting payed to keep EBMM off their pages. guitar techniques is a non BS teaching mag, written by teachers. about half of them plays ebmm(bridget, guthrie, jamie etc). and are outspoken about it. every other mag, usually laden with ads, will never even talk about it. of the 25th axe, i've seen ONE side-of-page ad. zero reviews. maybe there's a guitar payolla going on...
and maybe they should make really heavy heavy metal guitars so that people stop thinking that EBMM is a metal brand.
in my honnest opinion, i think alot of the guitar press is either biased or getting payed to keep EBMM off their pages. guitar techniques is a non BS teaching mag, written by teachers. about half of them plays ebmm(bridget, guthrie, jamie etc). and are outspoken about it. every other mag, usually laden with ads, will never even talk about it. of the 25th axe, i've seen ONE side-of-page ad. zero reviews. maybe there's a guitar payolla going on...
bkrumme
Well-known member
I'm not so sure that's the case. Advertisement is expensive, especially for a full-page ad. I think it comes down more to where each company decides to put their money. It's clear to me that Ernie Ball puts their money into their factory, employees, instruments, strings, accessories, R&D, etc. Advertisement is good, but the products speak for themselves and the players speak for the product.
As an example: How many forumites try to convince their friends to play EB instruments, strings, etc? Each person who does that is like a mini-endorsement for EB. Some would call us fanboys, zealots, etc. I say we want to spread the word about these wonderful products.
Dante
Well-known member
yeah, but when you're a mega titan of a corp, there's always the temptation to use that weight as leverage. suppose i book most of all your ads in a year, and have been doing so for a while. i can use that to demand discounts or to ask for unfair conditions. otherwise i'll stop advertising.
happens everyday. ask intel:
Stu-Pendus
Well-known member
I've got a Luke and once your dialed in to them,they are just a brilliant tool.
bkrumme
Well-known member
That might happen, but it's irrelevant when you consider it's EB's choice as to where they appropriate their funds. They could very easily pay extra to get that good advert spot.
Taking an objective POV, EBMM instruments don't have as much exposure in the marketplace. This is true more for guitars than basses. It could be for any number of reasons. I think that part of it is definitely how the big chain stores advertise and how they operate. I don't recall seeing a big store ad which highlighted EBMM guitars or basses. Likewise, the employees of the stores sometimes don't know anything about what they're selling. I'm really hoping to see this change since BP has been working with GC on it. I've been working on the guys who work at the Cincinnati GC to get some more exposure to MM guitars. They moved them from the amp room out to the floor right between PRS and Gibson where they belong (I think BP may have something to do with this).
The other thing I see is the music business itself. It drives the instrument business as much or more than advertisement. Every kid who decides to play an instrument probably has an idol. The most likely instrument they will buy is what their idol plays or something that looks like it. Each new fan who decides they want to be like their favorite artist goes out and buys what the artist plays. When the artist gets to be super famous you have tons of young fans who take up the instrument and decide to mimick their idol. This will continue until that fan realizes their individuality.
DaPatrooch
Well-known member
When I'm talking to someone about guitars, they ask what guitar I have, and I say "It's an Ernie Ball Music Man." Then they say, "Oh, you should get a Les Paul." Every kid I know who plays guitar has a frickin Epiphone Les Paul. They've never even heard of Ernie Ball (which is weird because the strings are basically advertised in Guitar Hero haha).
I once showed a cell phone pic of my Petrucci to my friend when we were talking about music and guitar playing, and he said he has a Strat (which I later find out is a Squier that you get in those starter packs). He asked the question, "What kind of guitar do you have?" Ernie Ball Music Man John Petrucci signature. "What?" I show him the picture and I say it's the best sounding, most comfortable guitar I've ever played, and that EBMM makes the best guitars out there. So he says, "It's no Fender, but I guess it looks ok..."
On the other hand, my better, open-minded friend, was curious about this brand he has never heard of (he's a drummer though- yes, and open minded drummer haha). I showed him the website and the pics on my phone and said they looked really nice, and he likes to learn about this stuff, just like when I ask him about drum-related stuff.
I once showed a cell phone pic of my Petrucci to my friend when we were talking about music and guitar playing, and he said he has a Strat (which I later find out is a Squier that you get in those starter packs). He asked the question, "What kind of guitar do you have?" Ernie Ball Music Man John Petrucci signature. "What?" I show him the picture and I say it's the best sounding, most comfortable guitar I've ever played, and that EBMM makes the best guitars out there. So he says, "It's no Fender, but I guess it looks ok..."
On the other hand, my better, open-minded friend, was curious about this brand he has never heard of (he's a drummer though- yes, and open minded drummer haha). I showed him the website and the pics on my phone and said they looked really nice, and he likes to learn about this stuff, just like when I ask him about drum-related stuff.
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bkrumme
Well-known member
Notice that it "looks" ok. Nothing about how it feels or sounds. Someone could say the same thing to him. "It's no LP, but I guess it looks ok..." It says nothing at all about the instruments except for that single person's opinion on aesthetics.
This ties right in to what I was saying before. Your idol looks cool with his guitar so (presumably) you will, too. So you buy one so you can look cool like your idol. All the while, you're ignoring that it's uncomfortable or sounds like crap.
A perfect example. One of the guys at the Florence, KY GC was excited about the new "relic'd" Strats & Teles they just got in a few months ago. He showed me one and asked me if I had played one. I told him I hadn't and I played one since he was asking for my opinion. The action was horrible, it didn't stay in tune, and it was noisy. He asked me what I thought so I told him these things. His answer to my criticism: "But it just looks so cool. It's like you're playing a vintage guitar."
DaPatrooch
Well-known member
Yeah I see what you mean, but the way he said it, it was like "whatever you say, good guitar haha." That kind of attitude. But mainly because he hadn't seen it before and it's not a Fender or Gibson, so basically everything else is crap in his opinion.
bkrumme
Well-known member
That kind of attitude sucks. Opinion is one of those things that really doesn't mean anything when it comes to product comparisons, though. He just wanted to be "better" than you. Pretty stupid of him.
Which also goes right along with what I was saying. There are kids out there who think they can get better by spending the money to buy the gear their idol plays. Sorry. It just plain doesn't work that way. I don't care what brand of guitar you play, you still have to practice. There are some of us who are naturally gifted, but that natural talent only goes so far. You still have to study your instrument and music in general to be a better player.
DaPatrooch
Well-known member
Yeah, exactly. I think with him it's more about the name recognition thing and plain ignorance about the fact that there are more brands than just Gibson and Fender. Even still, that kind of attitude about anything sucks.
bkrumme
Well-known member
I think what you just said really sums up a lot of the misconceptions about EBMM.
I would wager to say that the majority of guitar players are ignorant of EBMM guitars. G & F have been crammed down their throats so much they didn't take the time to learn about what else is out there.
ShaneV
Well-known member
The funny thing is that Fender can't even relic as well as other people. The used shop where I bought my SS carries Nash guitars now, and they absolutely eat fender's lunch for way less. Not my style at all, but certainly the route I'd take if I were the relic aficionado in the above story. (Note, this same store has had a poor purple SSS silo special with the old 6 screw bridge for over a year now, it needs a good home so bad
) My idol played a guitar he made from parts and painted all stripy-like. I'd look like a complete tool if I played what he did
Personally I find the MM look to be beautiful and space age- like a cross between all the best of the old classics and a certain modern, almost sci-fi vibe. I adore the beveling on the bottom and top horns of the silo/JP, I love the small body (even though I am 6'4") and honestly, Fender headstocks look stupidly big to me now. I love the way my MMs look, and I really couldn't care less what other people think.
As for the above salesman GC salesmen usually seem to me to be trying to push the newest stock. i was just in the nashua GC and the whole front section is full of empty stands with big signs saying "reserved for ESP, coming soon"
just try to walk in there without hearing how great those things are in a week, I dare you. Around New England we have a way better chain, called Daddy's Junky Music, and every employee there that I've ever told I play MMs has had nothing but great things to say, and talked about how the few they get in stock fly off the shelves in days. I've never been asked why I play that brand, or steered towards something else, which makes me enjoy going in there. Other chains could learn a thing or two about encouraging employees to accept gear diversity.