Question EBMM JP15 Low action 'twang' in tone?

[gurtejsingh]

Hey guys,

So first of all, I am not chasing numbers here just to clarify I have a JP15 which is setup to my liking (action is about 1.5mm, and the neck has some relief). Also, I understand that this topic has been discussed a lot before, so apologies if its a repost.

I know that JP plays his guitars with a much lower action (I do remember Maddi posting an image on the forum sometime back, and it was super low - Link). So, I was trying yesterday to get an even lower action on my JP15 and try out a few things. I straightened a neck a bit (almost straight) and it did reduce the action considerably (I got to somewhere lesser than 1.25mm), but what I immediately noticed is a 'twang' (more sitar like) tone in all my distortion and high gain rhythm and lead tones. While it is lesser when played through the neck pickup, it's very noticeable when played through the bridge pickup. Reducing the saddle height leads to a lot of fret buzz TBH, and it's not comfortable for my playing style.

I do know that a low action does bring in tonal changes, so I tried EQ'ing this out and tried different cabinets & amps, but could not achieve any success. I tried playing through my POD HD500 and also through Guitar Rig setup in my PC. I am however not playing through an amp, but use headphones.

My question is, does any one have any ideas as why this happens? Is it because I don't have an amp? How does JP manage to get such great tones? What's the secret ingredient that I am missing? Or am I doing it all wrong?

Any light shed on the question would be great!

Cheers.
gT

 

[QuietSpike]

without seeing/playing the guitar, it is tough to say... but a lot of it is in the fingers.

I have no idea how JP actually plays, but I know that my action on all of my JPs is *very* low... So low that sometimes a temperature or humidity change calls for a slight truss adjustment... but I also have a very light touch with the pick (a very heavy pick though), and my fretting hand is very light as well. Light enough to where my fingertips rarely, if ever, touch the wood on the fretboard. Light enough to where I just touch the fret/string that I want and it plays... just my finger weight is enough. No pressing. I don't have any problems like you are describing on any of my JPs.

Just wondering if it is playing style differences? Again, without being there and seeing/hearing it first hand, it's tough to say.

 

[gurtejsingh]

without seeing/playing the guitar, it is tough to say... but a lot of it is in the fingers.

I have no idea how JP actually plays, but I know that my action on all of my JPs is *very* low... So low that sometimes a temperature or humidity change calls for a slight truss adjustment... but I also have a very light touch with the pick (a very heavy pick though), and my fretting hand is very light as well. Light enough to where my fingertips rarely, if ever, touch the wood on the fretboard. Light enough to where I just touch the fret/string that I want and it plays... just my finger weight is enough. No pressing. I don't have any problems like you are describing on any of my JPs.

Just wondering if it is playing style differences? Again, without being there and seeing/hearing it first hand, it's tough to say.

Spike, thanks for the reply. While I do agree without seeing/hearing the guitar actually is tough, do you think a video/audio perhaps would help? I can try to put together a video/audio. Do you have any videos/audio where I can compare?

I do pick a bit hard, but that comes naturally I guess, I mean I don't really know if its possible to play such heavily palm muted riffs and fast solos without picking a bit hard, and plus on stage, the energy does get to you, and you do end playing a little harder. I will try out picking softly, but I doubt that's the key here.

What's your action like, when measured? Cheers.

 

[PaoloGilberto]

I tried going that low - aprox 1 mm for the low E and 0.8 for high E, but you have to pick really light and there is still fret buzz you can hear on the speakers
I just got the Majesty 2 days ago - and the neck on the low E string side is not straight - the neck has a problem IMO - and you can't get very low in terms of action. I can make the neck straight from 1-9 frets but it's concave between 9 and 24 th ...strange I know )
On the high E the neck is perfect.
So I managed to setup the guitar with a relief of 0.35 mm (normally you wouldn't go lower than 0.25 mm ) - measured from the top of the 9th fret to the bottom of a ruler that sits on the fretboard from 1st to the 24th fret to check that relief (check that brochure I sent ya )
I have now 1.6 mm for low E and 1.25 mm for high E - which is OK but not great for shred )
a little bit high, but through the speakers the sound is ok
you can still hear fretbuzz if not picking light on the first 1to 5 frets for the low E.

what is you neck relief now?
if you have the tools to measure it ...

 

[gurtejsingh]

I tried going that low - aprox 1 mm for the low E and 0.8 for high E, but you have to pick really light and there is still fret buzz you can hear on the speakers
I just got the Majesty 2 days ago - and the neck on the low E string side is not straight - the neck has a problem IMO - and you can't get very low in terms of action. I can make the neck straight from 1-9 frets but it's concave between 9 and 24 th ...strange I know )
On the high E the neck is perfect.
So I manage to setup the guitar with a relief of 0.35 mm (normally you wouldn't go lower than 0.25 mm ) - measured from the top of the 9th fret to the bottom of a ruler that sit on the fretboard from 1st to the 24th fret to check that relief (check that brochure I sent ya )
I have now 1.6 mm for low E and 1.25 mm for high E - which is OK but not great for shred )
a little bit high, but through the speakers the sound is ok
you can still hear fretbuzz if not picking light on the first 1to 5 frets for the low E.

what is you neck relief now?
if you have the tools to measure it ...

Hey man! I was wondering when your reply is going to appear for this thread Thanks a lot for replying. Yeah, it hurts a little when you have neck issues, have faced that in my other guitars and its a pain.

Going that low (1mm) is what gets me wondering. Looking at the fast shreds that Petrucci does, how is it possible that he plays really light? I don't think you can pick that light when you are shredding or playing such heavy riffs. Specially on some of the bends that you do, you have to dig into the string to get that nuance if you know what I mean!

Do you get that 'twang' that I am referring to in the tone? What is the cause for that? Am I picking too hard? Or is it fret buzz?

I did finally to get myself a string action gauge, but don't know how I can use that to measure relief. I have also ordered a notched straight edge (25.5 length), and am waiting for it to arrive.

But from what I can tell, the relief is quite less (I use both my hands to press the frets, don't have two capos, so never measured the actual relief).

Anyways, hoping that some one can shed some light on how JP gets his tone so great even with such low action? Maddi hope you are reading this

 

[PaoloGilberto]

you can use a capo at the first fret, press at the 24th fret the string with the left hand in playing position an measure the relief at 8-9th fret with the right hand ...using that string action gauge you have
JP does not pick light at all IMO especially on high gain stuff (not the clean tones), look at the videos - ex the majesty demo released recently - on piezo his live sound is horrible actually )) insane buzz like ) trust me on this , I see DT live 2-3 times /year , others can confirm this )
on an amp /modeler like AXE FX actually a very low setup is ok for high gain , without that twang you mentioned.
last night actually I've tried to compare the sound through my speakers (studio monitors) vs headphones - monitoring and audition high end.
and I hate the sound with headphones for guitar playing wihout a BT
and yes I can hear more pronounced that twang when using headphones and the fret buzz too
the idea is you can't get very low action and good sound and minimal buzz on drive and clean in the same time ) not even mentioning piezo =))
usually shredders prefer low action and they can get away with it on the high gain tones
JP has a lot of buzz on clean tones actually and with a "perfect neck" I was able to get that low action with pretty good or similar results in terms of sound and buzz
the buzz unplugged must be not discussed here ) it's there even at a 1.6 mm action, but what matters is if you hear it plugged in at high volume levels through the speakers IMO

 

[gurtejsingh]

you can use a capo at the first fret, press at the 24th fret the string with the left hand in playing position an measure the relief at 8-9th fret with the right hand ...using that string action gauge you have
JP does not pick light at all IMO especially on high gain stuff (not the clean tones), look at the videos - ex the majesty demo released recently - on piezo his live sound is horrible actually )) insane buzz like ) trust me on this , I see DT live 2-3 times /year , others can confirm this )
on an amp /modeler like AXE FX actually a very low setup is ok for high gain , without that twang you mentioned.
last night actually I've tried to compare the sound through my speakers (studio monitors) vs headphones - monitoring and audition high end.
and I hate the sound with headphones for guitar playing wihout a BT
and yes I can hear more pronounced that twang when using headphones and the fret buzz too
the idea is you can't get very low action and good sound and minimal buzz on drive and clean in the same time ) not even mentioning piezo =))
usually shredders prefer low action and they can get away with it on the high gain tones
JP has a lot of buzz on clean tones actually and with a "perfect neck" I was able to get that low action with pretty good or similar results in terms of sound and buzz
the buzz unplugged must be not discussed here ) it's there even at a 1.6 mm action, but what matters is if you hear it plugged in at high volume levels through the speakers IMO

Thanks buddy. I will check the relief out and see how much it is. But I am still not sure what that 'twang' is all about. I don't have an amp, but listen to his tone here

and here:

Does not sound anywhere close to what I have. Really if he has such low action, how is it possible?

Does any one know?????

Cheers.

 

[MesaBeno]

Thanks buddy. I will check the relief out and see how much it is. But I am still not sure what that 'twang' is all about. I don't have an amp, but listen to his tone here

and here:

Does not sound anywhere close to what I have. Really if he has such low action, how is it possible?

Does any one know?????

Cheers.

Keep in mind that in neither of those videos is he playing a JP15. The maple neck with the stainless steel frets is just more naturally 'twang' sounding than a guitar with a different wood neck. Could it maybe be that your ears are just adjusting to the maple tone?

 

[QuietSpike]

Thanks buddy. I will check the relief out and see how much it is. But I am still not sure what that 'twang' is all about. I don't have an amp, but listen to his tone here

and here:

Does not sound anywhere close to what I have. Really if he has such low action, how is it possible?

Does any one know?????

Cheers.

Yeah man... can't compare that. The main reason.... none of us are JP! We don't have his fingers, picking style, pick hold, attack vector, alternate-universe playing, etc...

Also, looking at the master volume on his amp in that video, that thing is CRANKED.... so you are hearing the mic'd cab and nothing else.

My action is *low*, like I said... I'll get pics and a demo vid soon... but my main rig is set up for the weekend already, and my big rig (my Mark V is for sale) is in pieces due to the sale... so just have cruddy practice amps here now. May be a few days.

 

[gurtejsingh]

Keep in mind that in neither of those videos is he playing a JP15. The maple neck with the stainless steel frets is just more naturally 'twang' sounding than a guitar with a different wood neck. Could it maybe be that your ears are just adjusting to the maple tone?

I'm going to be totally honest and go ahead and say 'probably'. It's been over a month I've had the guitar and I find myself constantly tweaking it to reduce buzz and get better tones.

I think it's a big change for me. I have a JP6 so first off, it's a change from CL/LF pickups to Illuminators now, and secondly it's a maple neck with SS frets.

I find the buzz more brighter on this one and I have had to raise the saddles really high to get rid of it. It's annoying me at times compared to my JP6, which has buzz but that's ebony. How do you deal with the change?

Don't get me wrong, the neck is probably the best neck that I've ever played and the entire guitar is fantastic! But sometimes due to the extra bright buzz, I get concerned to the fact at times that have I bought a good guitar? I slap myself back and say it's a JP! And I'm trying to accept the brighter buzz.

I don't have an amp and I don't think I can afford a Mesa Boogie right now. I do have studio monitors but I do try to keep it quiet by using headphones, which headphones a best for tone making and probably come closer to an amp?

Thanks for your thought!



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[gurtejsingh]

Yeah man... can't compare that. The main reason.... none of us are JP! We don't have his fingers, picking style, pick hold, attack vector, alternate-universe playing, etc...

Also, looking at the master volume on his amp in that video, that thing is CRANKED.... so you are hearing the mic'd cab and nothing else.

My action is *low*, like I said... I'll get pics and a demo vid soon... but my main rig is set up for the weekend already, and my big rig (my Mark V is for sale) is in pieces due to the sale... so just have cruddy practice amps here now. May be a few days.

I agree with you that it's JP, but that's inspirational for me, hence I would love to understand how he gets such brilliant tone with such a low action.

Do you also agree with Mesa above? Did you face something similar when you went to a maple fretboard? Do you find the buzz brighter when played acoustic?

Also, I'll look forward to your pics and video. Maybe I should do one too

Cheers.



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[PaoloGilberto]

so I spent some time today on the setup.
I went from
A. 1.6 mm low E/ 1.25 mm high E / aprox 3-3.5 mm relief
to
B. aprox 1.45 mm low E/ 1.15 mm high E / 2.5 mm relief
to
C. 1.25 mm low E/ 1 mm high E / 2.0 mm relief - see the pic for this setup

the strings ring and vibrate IMO better when they have some room like in the A setup.
if I pick light there is minimal to none buzz for the lowest setup C , even on piezo
there is some noticeably buzz sometimes on high gain tones on the B and C setup, but that can happen for heavy riffs/chugging even for the A setup )

on the C setup if I solo above 14th fret for ex an use the whammy bar there is not enough sustain sometimes, because the string does not have enough room to vibrate and the note dies sooner

the most interesting aspect is that even those 3 setup version don't seem to be drastically different from a level to the next one , you really feel playability wise and hear the difference in tone
useless to say that the most comfortable for solos is setup C , clear winner ))

 

[gurtejsingh]

View attachment 29222

so I spent some time today on the setup.
I went from
A. 1.6 mm low E/ 1.25 mm high E / aprox 3-3.5 mm relief
to
B. aprox 1.45 mm low E/ 1.15 mm high E / 2.5 mm relief
to
C. 1.25 mm low E/ 1 mm high E / 2.0 mm relief - see the pic for this setup

the strings ring and vibrate IMO better when they have some room like in the A setup.
if I pick light there is minimal to none buzz for the lowest setup C , even on piezo
there is some noticeably buzz sometimes on high gain tones on the B and C setup, but that can happen for heavy riffs/chugging even for the A setup )

on the C setup if I solo above 14th fret for ex an use the whammy bar there is not enough sustain sometimes, because the string does not have enough room to vibrate and the note dies sooner

the most interesting aspect is that even those 3 setup version don't seem to be drastically different from a level to the next one , you really feel playability wise and hear the difference in tone
useless to say that the most comfortable for solos is setup C , clear winner ))

Hey thanks for this man. I have tried this personally myself and I do always end up at setup A.

Perhaps the maple fingerboard tends to have a brighter buzz compared to other fretboards? Maybe it's about getting used to it? Even at setup A I do get buzz when digging hard.

For me,it's finding the right balance between playability and tone, but with minimal buzz and twang. I found that well in my JP6, but it's taking me a bit longer on my JP15.

Anyhow my question still remains - if JP plays at setup C or even lower, how is it he gets such great tone??? Fellow members chime in pls.


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[Jeong]

I've had a JPX in drop C and used beefy slinkys. The tone was nice and punchy. Buzz on fretted notes is completely normal and should be ignored if you can't hear it through the amp. The buzz is much louder/brighter on SS fret guitars. It's just a trade off for easier playability and NEVER having to replace your frets!

 

[Jeong]

That action is lower than I've ever had on any guitar! Incredible. I actually find it a bit easier to shred with slightly higher action.

 

[PaoloGilberto]

maple and ebony are considered to be similar tone wise.
as Jeong said SS frets tend to "accentuate" that fret buzz you hear + maple /ebony here you go )

I can get great tone as I said with low action and you can too
go plug in a mesa boogie mark V in your apart, crank the master vol at at least 12 o'clock and I guarantee you will go deaf =)) and not even hear or remember that you heard a fret buzz when you were unplugged )
I've played a mark V 25 w last week and for a small room for practice without a band the master vol was almost to 0 ) barelly moved maybe 0.5mm for 0 position ...when I was at 9 o'clock after 5 min my head was rattling )
JP is not playing through headphones that is for sure )
try in a practice room setup, on large speakers and you'll see the difference
I can hear the fretbuzz in my room with my Axe FX and studio monitors cause for home playing you don't wanna go deaf or annoy others to o much )
it's an electric guitar it will have fretbuzz no matter what when is unplugged
look at this video also - I suppose is the camera mic and you can hear the amp + the guitars picking and strings snapping the fretboard - PERFECTLY normal and OK

@Jeong a little bit higher action (like the A setup) is great but for sweep picking arpeggios I find that extra space between frets and string getting in my way

Hey thanks for this man. I have tried this personally myself and I do always end up at setup A.

Perhaps the maple fingerboard tends to have a brighter buzz compared to other fretboards? Maybe it's about getting used to it? Even at setup A I do get buzz when digging hard.

For me,it's finding the right balance between playability and tone, but with minimal buzz and twang. I found that well in my JP6, but it's taking me a bit longer on my JP15.

Anyhow my question still remains - if JP plays at setup C or even lower, how is it he gets such great tone??? Fellow members chime in pls.


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[gurtejsingh]

maple and ebony are considered to be similar tone wise.
as Jeong said SS frets tend to "accentuate" that fret buzz you hear + maple /ebony here you go )

I can get great tone as I said with low action and you can too
go plug in a mesa boogie mark V in your apart, crank the master vol at at least 12 o'clock and I guarantee you will go deaf =)) and not even hear or remember that you heard a fret buzz when you were unplugged )
I've played a mark V 25 w last week and for a small room for practice without a band the master vol was almost to 0 ) barelly moved maybe 0.5mm for 0 position ...when I was at 9 o'clock after 5 min my head was rattling )
JP is not playing through headphones that is for sure )
try in a practice room setup, on large speakers and you'll see the difference
I can hear the fretbuzz in my room with my Axe FX and studio monitors cause for home playing you don't wanna go deaf or annoy others to o much )
it's an electric guitar it will have fretbuzz no matter what when is unplugged
look at this video also - I suppose is the camera mic and you can hear the amp + the guitars picking and strings snapping the fretboard - PERFECTLY normal and OK

@Jeong a little bit higher action (like the A setup) is great but for sweep picking arpeggios I find that extra space between frets and string getting in my way

Thank you so much man. That sounds awesome and nice playing buddy! Unfortunately I don't own a Mesa Boogie and I don't think they are readily available in India. I can't afford one either at least for now!

Buying a good amp is the next thing on my list. I do have a studio setup (monitors) but can't crank up the volume too much so I have to use headphones to ignore the buzz

But what setup is that you are playing? A B or C? I checked it on my phone and it does sound very full. Will listen on a headphone soon.

Cheers again man. Thanks a lot!

@Jeong: I'm a little confused about the SS frets. Did all the JPs till date not always have SS frets? Reason I ask is that I have a stealth JP6 (2011) ebony, but the buzz is much much brighter on the 15. I checked online and it does say that the JP6 has SS. Help me out here

Thanks!






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[Jeong]

The SS frets are a relatively new addition i believe. Since 2012-2014ish? I've owned a few JP6's in the past which all had nickel-steel frets.

Thank you so much man. That sounds awesome and nice playing buddy! Unfortunately I don't own a Mesa Boogie and I don't think they are readily available in India. I can't afford one either at least for now!

Buying a good amp is the next thing on my list. I do have a studio setup (monitors) but can't crank up the volume too much so I have to use headphones to ignore the buzz

But what setup is that you are playing? A B or C? I checked it on my phone and it does sound very full. Will listen on a headphone soon.

Cheers again man. Thanks a lot!

@Jeong: I'm a little confused about the SS frets. Did all the JPs till date not always have SS frets? Reason I ask is that I have a stealth JP6 (2011) ebony, but the buzz is much much brighter on the 15. I checked online and it does say that the JP6 has SS. Help me out here

Thanks!






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[QuietSpike]

Quick vid with crappy audio... But hopefully you get the picture..

 

[gurtejsingh]

Quick vid with crappy audio... But hopefully you get the picture..

Spike, thank you so much for putting this out there. Does sound incredible and full when played through the amp. Obviously the mark V is awesome, and I would love to play through it, only thing is that its not available here, and I am trying to make do with other alternatives

As I said earlier, I am used to fret buzz, but honestly it's way more brighter on a maple fretboard and SS frets, maybe that is something I get used to IMO

I will try to "Fuggettaboutit" Thank you once again for taking the effort and putting this out there.

BTW is that the JP15 BB? Love the figuring on your fretboard and your action is super low! must like 1 mm or something? WOW.

Cheers again man. Thanks