First Bongo recording session (advice, please)

[Alvabass]

Hi everybody.

I've just come from a local recording studio where I was recording some bass tracks for a rock band. This is my Bongo's first recording session and I had a trouble that I'm hoping you friendly EBMM owners help me to solve.

The problem was: When I plugged the bass (direct to the recording console), it distorted and clipped a lot. The recording "engineer" (no real recording engineers here) tried to solve the problem by moving his knobs and couldn't do it. I told him: "Look: With all my basses, I've been used to set the volume knob at maximum and control my output from the amplifier. With this beast, I simply can't do it. No matter how many -500db pads I use, the amps always clip, so I have to turn my volume knob down. Maybe that's the solution for this as well". He told me that doesn't like to do that because he feels that putting the instrument's volume knob other than full makes the instrument to sound weaker, so he started to mess with my bass' knobs (except volume) and he could approximate a decent clean tone, but not totally convinced, anyway.

I don't know... I'm not a recording engineer, but I think that moving the tone and pickups' knobs to a different setting than the one I like REALLY changes the bass character. In fact, the bass EQ knob, for instance, was almost zero. I think it's best to turn down the volume, but I have no arguments to convince this guy, so I really appreciate your input on this. Who's right? My preferred settings for playing with a band (different from solo playing) are everything full blast. Only the low mids slightly cut (like on 6,5 -from 1 to 10-). We're going to continue the recording on Tuesday night (although I think it should start all over again). Any advice for recording my Bongo is welcome. Thank you in advance!

 

[bovinehost]

The simple solution is to either turn the bass volume down (he's wrong about having to keep it wide open) or pad it at the desk. If he can't control it with the preamp/DI, then turn the volume down on the bass.

Or don't record direct, or use a combination of direct/cabinet.

This guy isn't exactly George Martin, is he?

I have to turn my volume knob down. Maybe that's the solution for this as well". He told me that doesn't like to do that because he feels that putting the instrument's volume knob other than full makes the instrument to sound weaker

If this were true, wouldn't the same be true of having the tone knobs at anything other than all the way up?

 

[Alvabass]

If this were true, wouldn't the same be true of having the tone knobs at anything other than all the way up?

That's exactly what I think, Jack, but again, he's "the engineer" and I'm just "the player". I need an uncontrovertible argument.

BTW, this reminds me of something: My Carvin BB75 only sounds really good with the volume full. When in other position, it hums. This bass is 5 years old. Is this supposed to happen on "old" instruments?

 

[Joe Nerve]

To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong anyone else who knows better), cranking all the EQs equally will give you the same tonal qualities as having them all at half, only with a helluva lot more output. I always believe it was best to start at the midpoint and tweak the sound from there by adding and taking away where necessary.

Also wanna say +1 on what Jack said about the volume thing. It's not going to affect the recording if you're volume is down on the bass. What it WILL do is make it a little harder to match an overdub if you mess with the volume at all after the initial takes. Same goes for all the other EQ knobs too.

Hey, if all else fails when you go back into the studio, why don't you just take one of the batteries out. Then the preamp'll only be 9 volts instead of 18.


just kidding.

 

[bovinehost]

That's exactly what I think, Jack, but again, he's "the engineer" and I'm just "the player". I need an uncontrovertible argument.

His job is to make you sound good. If he isn't doing that or can't do that, he needs to go back to selling toothpaste. Even on hired gun sessions way back in the old days, when I was young and actually did such things, I never saw the engineer as anything but a tool to make my tracks sound good. If the tool doesn't work, you find another tool.

But reality is that sometimes you have to just deal with it. I've been unhappy with certain situations and just couldn't fight it anymore, but if it's YOUR money being spent in the studio, then he needs to do what YOU want him to do.

Have him record two bass tracks, one with the bass volume turned down to avoid clipping at the board and one with it full up and see what the difference is. I mean, just blast through the tune, sort of a 'scratch bass' track, not intended to be perfect, but to see what sits in the mix the right way.

Just some ideas.

On the Carvin - no clue. What pickups does it have?

 

[Joe Nerve]

His job is to make you sound good. If he isn't doing that or can't do that, he needs to go back to selling toothpaste.

I must commend your sense of humor, which I never have. Your wit and choice of words often cracks me up for some reason.

 

[SteveB]

+1 Jack.

The engineer ought to be able to get a grip on his gain structure without you doing anything to your Bongo.

If he can't get it with trim pots or pads on the console, maybe he needs a better console?

Are you going into a direct box, and then into the console? Or does the console have an unbalanced input that you're plugged into?

 

[Alvabass]

Are you going into a direct box, and then into the console? Or does the console have an unbalanced input that you're plugged into?

The bass is going through a direct box first, Steve. I think the console is a Mackie, but I'm not sure.

 

[Alvabass]

On the Carvin - no clue. What pickups does it have?

It has a MM type humbucker at the bridge position with coil splitter and a single coil at neck.

 

[Big Poppa]

Alva...the bongo earned its stripes first in the studio......when it didnt matter what it looked like. It was "wow what the f ? there is so much tone and bottom with out killing the track...blah blah> Im sure that your engineer will tell you he's right but do you think that we would put a high end ground breaking instrument without doing our homework in the studio.

Joe bad advice re taking one battery out...it records fine as shipped. With a passive bass it really is important that it is full volume, but thatt is not the case with an active bass. This is basics of recording 101.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Joe bad advice re taking one battery out...

I guess ya didn't see the white print.

I WAS KIDDING GOSH DARNIT!

 

[bovinehost]

It has a MM type humbucker at the bridge position with coil splitter and a single coil at neck.

My guess would be that what you're hearing is good old single coil hum unless something has come loose - but if that were the case, you'd hear it no matter what. So I vote for single coil hum until I'm proven wrong (it happens a lot, I'm married).

To be fair to the engineer, he's probably never dealt with an 18v preamp on a bass nor the massive power that is BoNgo. When confronted with the unknown, what are our options?

1. Ask questions and change our approach based on the information.
2. Act like you know what's going on and pretend to know how to deal with it.

Seems like he's going for option 2. You may want to pat him on the back, make him your new best friend and say something like, "I know, these are new basses, nothing else like them on the market, so you may have to re-think your recording approach. Let me see if I can help you."

Now we all know what you're really saying is, "Listen, you asshat, I'm co-opting you so I can get a decent bass tone here" but he doesn't have to know that.

But is it YOUR money being spent here? Or did they hire you to "just" do the bass work? Because again, if it's your money, he seriously needs to kiss your butt a little bit.

 

[Psycho Ward]

Lots of good advice and I agree with all of it… the technical part.

But this is a communication issue really and I believe that the standard “politically correct” approach does not apply in the studio. Engineers are rarely musicians and though the can be extremely bright people they often don’t understand their place in the music food chain.

I suggest a few ways to explain to them just where that place is…

Visual explanation:

Hold one hand as high above your head as you can and loudly say “Musician”!
Next, hold your other hand about a foot from the floor and quietly say “engineer”…


Verbal explanation:

The Music food chain is as follows: creativity> performance> recording> geek who puts CD’s on the shelf at Wal-Mart.



After these examples the engineer should have a better understanding of his place and be more motivated (job scared) to get the job done right or be dropped like a used condom.








(This is merely a joke and only a joke. No offence is meant or should be taken; I have several friends who are engineers and are really nice, professionals and have pretty children. No animals were harmed in this satire though a cat did piss on my bedroom shoes. Thanks.)

 

[JB1]

All good advice here, some of which I must admit I haven't read in great detail (so I may be repeating advice you already got), but to add my 0.02....

Keep the tone where YOU want it, but if you adjust to 1/2 as opposed to full, make sure you bring all (LOW, MID & HIGH) down in proportion to one another.

Joe's dead right about over dubs etc. Write down a 'clockface' note of where your dials are at BEFORE EVERY take. Might sound extreme, but you never know.

Jack's also right on it (as almost he always is). This guy's job is to make YOU sound good. Play the way you play with YOUR tone. The volume CAN be adjusted and anyone who says this is untrue of an actice bass, well......

Good luck
JB

 

[bongo man]

This is very simple-
get the eq setting that you need and then turn your master volume down. The volume up all the way when recording does not always apply to active instruments. Don't forget 'adding eq adds db'---
find your sweet spot and mark it with a grease pencil or whatever.
You might want to make sure your pickups are not to high.
I used the Bongo with many different settings in numerous studios in L.A. for a couple years and have NEVER had any problems.
Use that master volume;-)

 

[SteveB]

The bass is going through a direct box first, Steve. I think the console is a Mackie, but I'm not sure.

In that case, you have yet to try running the instrument cable out of the Bongo and directly into an unbalanced 1/4" input on the mixer, if it has one.

I would say try your Bongo's volume at about 75% and set up the gain structure from there using the trim pot for the mixer channel, and the mixer's channel pad if available and needed.. don't pad unless you absolutely must.

As a last resort, you *can* mic a bass amp, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[JB1]

Or you could do both, as in go direct AND have a signal from a mike in front of the speaker cab.

Blend 'em up!

 

[Steve Dude Barr]

Tell that dink to get fooked I say..

 

[JB1]

Yeah, Dude, you could do that!

Seriously tho, talk to this guy about some of the suggestions you've had here from fellas that know their onions (Dude even has a bath with 'em).

Try to agree to try a few things out for differing tone etc, but been fairly clear & certain when discussing this volume thing, cos he's talking cobblers and we ain't.

Bon chance

 

[tkarter]

BP gave you your arguement. Tell him this is an active bass and let's use the volume.

He may see the light and thank you for the learning experience.

IMHO

tk