Question Floating Trem and Intonation

[nervous]

Having some unusual difficulty in intonating the Silo Special and has a question for those in the know since I rarely work with a full floating trem bridge. Do you immobilize the bridge when doing the intonation to remove the possible bridge motion when fretting and testing? I know that is likely s dumb question since that motion is so small but I am finding myself moving the saddles further and further back many to the point they can't practically go back any further because they're hitting the back of the bridge plate or covering the string through holes. So in a frustrated move to see what happens I moved all the saddles forward into the more 'normal' range and found that, as expected, they all play a tad sharp but not as much as I would have expected so that didn't make sense. And it sounds find to my ears tuning wise. So I am a bit stumped.

Another odd thing I have happen is that when the low E reads in tune open (confirmed with the 12th fret harmonic for reference) that string plays sharp when fretted, and yes, the nut slot height is good. but when I detune that string just a hair and teh tuner reads just a tad flat things come nicely into tune. Also baffling. Now I have had other guitars where they was a string that had to be tweaked a bit after an accurate tuner reading so perhaps this is a case of that? Just an imperfect idiosyncrasy?

 

[DrKev]

No need to immobilize the bridge. Too small a difference for us to care.

Low E strings have been the bane of my life since forever. They frequently don't intonate right and yes I prefer tuning down a cent or two to make things right (I saved a preset on my Peterson tuner to do just that and use ti contsanty for everything). And then they go out of tune sharp and immediately always.

The guitar is a very imperfect instrument and always has been. It's only in the era of super accurate tuners that some people notice what was always there from the beginning. Some of what we see is due to our finger position and pressure which can only make things sharper, never flatter.

Just remember that perfection does not exist and never has. Most of our favorite recordings of all time, and favoroite gigs we've ever been to, were played on guitars with far greater tuning issues that we have today. Do your best and then forget about it. It's all cool.

 

[beej]

What Kev said. The low E kills me too. Never right.

 

[ngjenkins]

What Kev said. The low E kills me too. Never right.

Same. I always tune just SLIGHTLY down on the low E. For years I thought it was just my own pick attack, and maybe it is, but it's across all electric guitars.

I think a really terrific thing to note as well is in THIS video at about 21:42 where Music is Win talks about intonation and Joe is clearly adjusting/bending with his hands. We want to get as close as we can and then know how to adjust as we go.

Also, one final note from my experience is... man it's just hard to get inexpensive tuners to clock the nuances of intonation. Even my Boss pedal struggles with it. So, again, I'm just getting close enough.

 

[nervous]

What Kev said. The low E kills me too. Never right.

Thank you both. It's funny that for as long as I have been around and doing this stuff you'd think I would have know that. And for better or worse the way my mind works is that if there is an expected 'right' result and I cannot meet said result then something is therefore 'wrong'. And the other curse is unless that an issue is resolved one way or the other it just spins round and round in my brain until I can find a happy result, even if that means starting over or abandoning the idea altogether. Rarely without a battle.

 

[nervous]

Same. I always tune just SLIGHTLY down on the low E. For years I thought it was just my own pick attack, and maybe it is, but it's across all electric guitars.

I think a really terrific thing to note as well is in THIS video at about 21:42 where Music is Win talks about intonation and Joe is clearly adjusting/bending with his hands. We want to get as close as we can and then know how to adjust as we go.

Also, one final note from my experience is... man it's just hard to get inexpensive tuners to clock the nuances of intonation. Even my Boss pedal struggles with it. So, again, I'm just getting close enough.

Thank you. I have been lucky in getting my usual Snark clip-ons (I know, I know...) to do the job, the method being simply watching the behavior or consistency of the 'needle'/bars at the various check points as much as the actual in tune status. But this one with the new saddles has been a bit of a fight, and yesterday I tested the same using my Helix Floor onboard strobe tuner which I have to assume is considerably more accurate and ended up with the same results. And I don't think the new strings help that cause for reading either.

I am currently doing a re-work on the saddles to see what Improvements I can make to them individually to make them more suitable and adjustable in this application. They're just so damned hard and do not like to be filed or worked.

 

[nervous]

OK, so I think I have solved my problems. Spent a couple hours scheming and modifying and this is what I came up with:

I took some comparative nut to bridge string release point measurements from one of my well set-up Axis and my pre-saddle swap Silo. They wer very close so I know where I needed to be. But as is there was no way I was getting there since I was already running out of available rearward saddle travel and remaining sharp. So my thought was to change the takeoff point on the new saddles by introducing a groove.

And this is what that looked like:


It was a guess for distance but I knew I had to be mindful of the string locking screw head size and I did come very close to that line. I think I am OK but time will tell. I have a plan B is that becomes an issue.

I just did the four most impacted saddles: E, A, G & B.



And it worked perfectly! Set the initial saddle placements per my previous measurements, strung up and tuned up, and everything was amazingly nearly dead on from that initial set, and there was still just enough room to improve things while maintaining enough string through clearance which was another concern with these saddles.

And this is what the final set looks like:


So that was fun.

 

[StreetLethal91]

Sounds like you have solved your problem but in case anyone else has issues, here is the process that I use for all my floating non-locking trem guitars (PRS Gen II & III & Music Man Tremolo).

First off, lube the nut and saddles with big bends nut sauce and lube trem pivot points with a drop of tri-flow lubricant.
This alleviates any binding in the mechanical bits and pivot points.
Next, stretch those strings, like reaaaaaaalllllly good. Stretch them until they absolutely do not change in tune. For me, this usually takes around 10-12 stretching runs with my string stretcha tool.
Tune to pitch, check neck relief and adjust if needed.
Check action height and set to desired height. Set low E and high E strings to desired height. After doing so check string radius at bridge matches fretboard radius with the proper understring radius gauge.
For the most accurate setting, the radius under the strings should match the fretboard. This method removes the thickness of the string gauge from the equation.
Once the string radius at the bridge matches the fretboard radius, sight down the neck and make sure each saddle is parallel to the bridge. You don't want your saddles to be leaning one way or the other, you want them to be level. The saddles themselves will be different heights to match the fretboard radius, but you don't want them lopsided causing the string to slip. Adjust the set screws to position the saddle parallel to the bridge. Also, make sure the set screws on each side of the saddle are underpressure meaning they aren't loose. If one is tight and one is loose, due to vibration the loose one can thread itself back into the saddle causing your saddle to lean. This is a no no.
Now, adjust the float of the bridge to be parallel with the body of the guitar. Make small 1/4 turn adjustments on the claw and detune & retune multiple times to ensure the bridge is floating even with the body. Always tune up, never down. You want the worm gears in the tuners to be under pressure to ensure your tuning doesn't go flat due to the tuner slipping. Make sure to hold the guitar up and close one eye when sighting this as sometimes things can look even when the bridge is still recessed or push forward. I have found that making sure the bridge is in the proper position is especially important for intonation. The bridge doesn't move in a perfect straight up and down motion when using the trem, it moves in an arc. If the bridge is set forward you are essentially sharping all of the strings intonation wise since you are decreasing string length and vice versa if the bridge is setup recessed you are flatting all the strings.
When intonating make sure to use a good plug in tuner, no clip on tuners. Always set intonation in playing position. Setting intonation in other positions can cause an inaccurate reading as the string can oscillate. Ex) If the guitar is flat on your table and you pluck the string parallel to the body, the string is going to move forwards and backwards while gravity pulls down on the string causing it to oscillate. Doing so in playing position eliminates this and ensures the string only vibrates in one direction (up and down).
Switch to the neck pickup and roll off the tone on the guitar to about 5-6 so that you avoid any unwanted overtones that can affect intonation. It should be noted that when you are fretting the 12 fret note for each string that you do so using regular playing pressure. If you intonate your guitar using dainty finger pressure, you may notice things sound off when you play the guitar normally. Adjust each string one by one. Moving the saddle forward will sharpen the string, moving the saddle back will flatten. After adjusting the intonation you may need to go back and readjust the trem claw to make sure the bridge is parallel again since moving the saddles to intonate changes the pressure point of the string. This is usually a very minute adjustment if any is needed. Retune everything to pitch and double check intonation and you should be good to go!

It should be noted that some strings are easier to intonate due to their core material and shape. Strings that use a round core seem to be easier to intonate as they break in faster and allow the string to stretch easier while strings with a hex core take more time to break in and are a bit more difficult to intonate as the hex core bites into the wrapping preventing the string from stretching as much. You may have to play the guitar and really break in the strings good before you can intonate the guitar properly if using strings with a non-round core profile.

Hope this helps!