Graphtech LB63 bridge on Axix Super Sport

[phel]

I'm looking at a second hand ASS with a piezo vintage-style bridge, but I'm not impressed with the bridge. The piezo pickups don't seem to work that well with the bridge floating. I've seen a different thread here about that so it might be a known issue?

An alternative might be to replace the original bridge and piezo kit with Graphtec's Ghost system and their LB63 licensed floyd-rose bridge. The job would require routing for a locking nut, but does anyone know how the bridge itself would fit?

 

[Jimmyb]

I'm not entirely sure any piezo system will be that effective on a piezo system. My understanding is that they need the downwards pressure on the chrystal in order to work.

 

[phel]

I can's see that there should be that much of a drop in pressure on the saddles with the small angle one get with the bridge floating. Graphtech's LB63 bridge with piezo is a drop-in replacement for most original and licensed FR bridges. I installed one for a friend recently (replacing a Gotoh FR) and had no issues with the piezo pickup with the bridge floating. In fact I'd have to dive nearly half an octave before the piezo would cut off.

Another alternative could be to replace the saddles on the original bridge with a different set of piezo-equipped saddles if I can find some that fit (for example Graphtech string-savers with piezo http://graphtech.com/products.html?SubCategoryID=19).

 

[phel]

I'm not entirely sure any piezo system will be that effective on a piezo system. My understanding is that they need the downwards pressure on the chrystal in order to work.

I can's see how the small angle introduced by floating the bridge should make much difference. I installed the previously mentioned bridge as a drop-in replacement for a Gotoh floyd-rose on a friend's guitar a couple months ago and had no problem with piezo sensitivity on that bridge. I don't expect to use the trem much at all with the piezo, but during tests I had to dive nearly half an octave before the piezo would drop out.

Another alternative, if it's too much work to fit a FR, could be to replace EB's piezo-saddles with more sensitive ones if I can find some that fit (for example Graphtech piezo string-savers) the EB bridge.

 

[threeminutesboy]

just for the sake of the discussion, how may acoustic guitar with a trem have you ever seen?

The piezo works fine when you use you guitar as an acoustic

 

[phel]

just for the sake of the discussion, how may acoustic guitar with a trem have you ever seen?

The piezo works fine when you use you guitar as an acoustic

That's not the issue as mentioned in my previous post. I don't intend to touch the trem at all while playing acoustic tones, but want a floating bridge with the magnetic pickups. It's just that the EB piezo starts to droup out when the springs are loosened to raise the bridge. To adjust spring tension and retune between songs is not really an option

Btw, I would probably also install a tremol-no on such a guitar to be able to quickly lock and release the floating bridge as necessary. That would however not affect the angle of the strings or the tension between strings and saddles so it won't fix the problem that the piezo occasionally drops out when the bridge is raised.

 

[brokenvail]

If I am reading you are not comparing apples to apples You can not compare a replacment FR with piezo to a vintage style trem with piezo. The vintage style needs the pressure mentioned above. The design of the FR is totally different. It it set to float, and is not string though

 

[phel]

If I am reading you are not comparing apples to apples You can not compare a replacment FR with piezo to a vintage style trem with piezo. The vintage style needs the pressure mentioned above. The design of the FR is totally different. It it set to float, and is not string though

If you compare the construction of Graphtech's FR saddles and their vintage piezo saddles you'll see that there really isn't much difference to how vibrations reach the piezo element. The saddles are made of the same material, and the piezo cell sits in the same relative position from the string. The string locking mechanism on the FR sits too far from the edge of the saddle to affect how string tension creates pressure against the point where the piezo-cell is located. I have not yet tried to install piezo-saddles on vintage bridge myself, but I have been following discussions about the installation and use of after-market piezo saddles for vintage trems in general. There's lots of issues with installation, wiring and electronics but I haven's seen anybody complain about loss of piezo signal with floating bridges.

I also have a problem understanding why EB's piezo bridge would be any different. The tension of the string across the point of the saddle where the piezo-cell sits is the same for a given tone/string combination regardless of whether the bridge rests against the body or if it is floating. It must be a question of construction and geometry within the saddles. I.e. that the slight change of angle between the string and saddle increases the distance between the string and piezo cell, or that the material in the saddle does not carry vibrations as efficient in all directions.

 

[brokenvail]

If you compare the construction of Graphtech's FR saddles and their vintage piezo saddles you'll see that there really isn't much difference to how vibrations reach the piezo element. The saddles are made of the same material, and the piezo cell sits in the same relative position from the string. The string locking mechanism on the FR sits too far from the edge of the saddle to affect how string tension creates pressure against the point where the piezo-cell is located. I have not yet tried to install piezo-saddles on vintage bridge myself, but I have been following discussions about the installation and use of after-market piezo saddles for vintage trems in general. There's lots of issues with installation, wiring and electronics but I haven's seen anybody complain about loss of piezo signal with floating bridges.

I also have a problem understanding why EB's piezo bridge would be any different. The tension of the string across the point of the saddle where the piezo-cell sits is the same for a given tone/string combination regardless of whether the bridge rests against the body or if it is floating. It must be a question of construction and geometry within the saddles. I.e. that the slight change of angle between the string and saddle increases the distance between the string and piezo cell, or that the material in the saddle does not carry vibrations as efficient in all directions.

The may look the same but they can't be the same. I think you should just follow you plan through. You are pretty convinced that we are wrong if that is the case that I encourage you to just try what you think will work. I don't suspect any one here will tell you differently than what has already been said. I will say this buying a A.S.S. and modding it to use a floyd with piezo seems like a lot of work although I will say this most of the troubles people have fitting a piezo system into a guitar is not an issue for you because since this guitar has a piezo already you shouldn't need to do any routing.

 

[phel]

I will say this buying a A.S.S. and modding it to use a floyd with piezo seems like a lot of work although I will say this most of the troubles people have fitting a piezo system into a guitar is not an issue for you because since this guitar has a piezo already you shouldn't need to do any routing.

Exactly. So I guess I'll try a different set of piezo vintage saddles first. Maybe try a Ghost-kit from Graptec if one of their saddles (info here) fits the EB bridge. But first of all I have to decide if I really want to buy the A.S.S.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My reason for starting this thread is primarily to get info from EBMM-owners who might have done something similar in past.

 

[brokenvail]

Exactly. So I guess I'll try a different set of piezo vintage saddles first. Maybe try a Ghost-kit from Graptec if one of their saddles (info here) fits the EB bridge. But first of all I have to decide if I really want to buy the A.S.S.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My reason for starting this thread is primarily to get info from EBMM-owners who might have done something similar in past.

That is def the key question. If you are into the floating trem thing why not get an Axis? After market saddles my not be able to be used with the EBMM pre amp. You will want to fall customer service and asked them. Just so you know a Luke II come from the factory with the bridge set to float but if you ordered one with a piezo it comes with the bridge flush to the body. That alone lead me to believe that you can't float a vintage trem that has piezo and expect the piezo to sound good

 

[Jimmyb]

I think the problem is probably due to the way the bridge is set. If you have the bridge recessed, as with many floyd's, the base plate of the bridge is parallel with the body. To float the bridge on an ASS or a Luke, you need to angle it, which reduces the string angle on the saddle and reduces the force on the chrystal.

On a recessed floyd, the break angle doesn't change, so the force remains the same (apart from when you dive obviously).

 

[phel]

To float the bridge on an ASS or a Luke, you need to angle it, which reduces the string angle on the saddle and reduces the force on the chrystal.

The difference isn't that big, but obviously big enough to cause problems with this particular piezo. I just noticed that tuning the guitar down a half step to Eb is also enough to loose piezo signal on 4 of the strings. That is also something I haven't heard about being a problem with other piezo bridges. I've just ordered a generic piezo kit to play with, with saddles for my vintage-trem-equipped partscaster. It will be interesting to compare that to the A.S.S. The piezo in the A.S.S. seem to operate awfully close to the limit of what the pickup is able to handle.

 

[beej]

It sounds odd to me that things are cutting out by tuning down 1/2 a step. This is a factory piezo? Perhaps you should contact the customer service folks and get their advice before spending any money trying to retrofit a Ghost install, etc.

 

[Jimmyb]

I've had the piezo on both an ASS and a 20th and I've not experienced the problems that you mention. As Beej says, it might be worth a call to CS to see what they say about it.

 

[R and R]

I myself have created a MM synth. I don't think the LB63 will fit on an ASS. The trem posts don't have the same spacing. I used a mid 90's Silhouette.

 

[phel]

I myself have created a MM synth. I don't think the LB63 will fit on an ASS. The trem posts don't have the same spacing. I used a mid 90's Silhouette.

I realised that shortly after starting this thread when I measure the distance between the pole-pieces. That's why I since focused on the possibility of just replacing the saddles. However, as also has been pointed out, not everyone seem to have the same problem with their EBMM piezo-bridges so we'll try to get some help from customer support first. The A.S.S owner is a friend visiting from abroad. Customer support here in Norway is not cooperating, but his local supplier has offered to try a spare bridge once he gets back home.