inate_hex
Member
The midlands is only a small part of the uk.
- Thread starter steevo
- Start date
steevo
Well-known member
Small part of the uk? It covers a MASSIVE area of the uk. Thats like saying wales is only a small part of the uk.
The simple fact is that one of the countries biggest stores there is a very small showing from EBMM. The reason i suggested catalogs is that its a return to the nostalgic days when catalogs sold guitars and maybe they would attract the musicians who maybe dont know much aboug MM and give them a physical item in the hands to take home and look at.
The simple fact is that one of the countries biggest stores there is a very small showing from EBMM. The reason i suggested catalogs is that its a return to the nostalgic days when catalogs sold guitars and maybe they would attract the musicians who maybe dont know much aboug MM and give them a physical item in the hands to take home and look at.
inate_hex
Member
You should of said "Here in the Midlands the only MM instruments in stores are second hand ones." You stated the UK. Which gives the impression that there are no new MM instruments in stores in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is total horse manure.
steevo
Well-known member
What are you on about? Ive stated the truth and that is the stores local to me (PMT is a store that only sell new instruments) dont stock or advertise MM instruments. Im saying there is little to no promotion of them, if you read through the thread youll see i have stated that.
Youre saying im talking sh*t when others have agreed with me. You might have stores close to you that have them in store but im saying the ones near me, and everyone ive ever been in, have little or no MM guitars in them.
Spudmurphy
Well-known member
Woaah hold on chaps?
I think I see where Stevo and inate-hex are coming from.
My I offer conciliation - there's no charge!
My impression is that Steevo has a passion for the craftsmanship and quality of EB guitars,
and he is frustrated by the fact that the majority of music stores in the UK do not carry a large(ish) inventory of EB guitars thereby extolling their virtues.
I empathise with that passion, having had my eyes opened to MM guitars in the naughties.
For the record, my personal experience was that in 2005 when I bought my first EB, it was damn near impossible to try out an Albert Lee in either of the 2 major Music Shops in my home town the largest City and Capital of Wales.
Consequently, to try any out I travelled to Oxford - a round trip of 440 miles and later on, to Knighton. A round trip of 160 miles (Knighton has to have THE best range of EB's in the UK!!!) I later found a really small outlet in Cardiff - but still - no full range of EB guitars.
I travel around the UK a lot** in my job and always pop into the local music stores - and the fact is that EB guitars are thin on the ground when it comes to inventory.
( ** Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Newcastle, Shipley, Bradford, Liverpool, Manchester, Southend, Exeter, Plymouth, Belfast, North Wales ... ... there's more!)
I see why inate_hex has responded as he has, as I read the original post in a similar way to him.
The facts (as evidenced by myself in many cities) is that:-
New 'balls are out there
There are some outlets that carry a large inventory of new 'balls
These outlets are few and far between
For some people, it's difficult to try out new 'balls - for others it's easier.
The suggestion that new ball's maybe should (sorry for the grammer I'm typing this fast before I clock off) be stocked by more outlets to extoll their virtues is a "Taste & Fancy" (I mean I would just love that to happen!) - but when you consider the number of ball's (probably) currently exported to the UK, it ain't gonna happen, and in the current economic climate, reluctantly, we have to live with it.
I think I see where Stevo and inate-hex are coming from.
My I offer conciliation - there's no charge!
My impression is that Steevo has a passion for the craftsmanship and quality of EB guitars,
and he is frustrated by the fact that the majority of music stores in the UK do not carry a large(ish) inventory of EB guitars thereby extolling their virtues.
I empathise with that passion, having had my eyes opened to MM guitars in the naughties.
For the record, my personal experience was that in 2005 when I bought my first EB, it was damn near impossible to try out an Albert Lee in either of the 2 major Music Shops in my home town the largest City and Capital of Wales.
Consequently, to try any out I travelled to Oxford - a round trip of 440 miles and later on, to Knighton. A round trip of 160 miles (Knighton has to have THE best range of EB's in the UK!!!) I later found a really small outlet in Cardiff - but still - no full range of EB guitars.
I travel around the UK a lot** in my job and always pop into the local music stores - and the fact is that EB guitars are thin on the ground when it comes to inventory.
( ** Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Newcastle, Shipley, Bradford, Liverpool, Manchester, Southend, Exeter, Plymouth, Belfast, North Wales ... ... there's more!)
I see why inate_hex has responded as he has, as I read the original post in a similar way to him.
The facts (as evidenced by myself in many cities) is that:-
New 'balls are out there
There are some outlets that carry a large inventory of new 'balls
These outlets are few and far between
For some people, it's difficult to try out new 'balls - for others it's easier.
The suggestion that new ball's maybe should (sorry for the grammer I'm typing this fast before I clock off) be stocked by more outlets to extoll their virtues is a "Taste & Fancy" (I mean I would just love that to happen!) - but when you consider the number of ball's (probably) currently exported to the UK, it ain't gonna happen, and in the current economic climate, reluctantly, we have to live with it.
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steevo
Well-known member
I think having no instruments available to try in a dealers store is a pretty poor showing though, by any company. If id have tried a MM before i bought my strat i would have had one instead
Spudmurphy
Well-known member
The MM guitar side of the company is small in comparison with Fender / Gibson. I'm not going to embarrass myself by trying to recite their (EB MM) monthly production – I’m sure BP did mention it at some stage but it is not as big as you may think. As a further insight it would be worth you reading his blog just to get an insight into his company.
http://forums.ernieball.com/blogs/big-poppa/19-interaction-change-next.html
I did try googling largest guitar manufacturer by production but alas no luck. There are many “Top Ten” Guitar manufacturer lists (which I take with a pinch of salt as these are commonly based on opinion or mere conjecture) and I haven’t found one that includes EB in the top 10. I was shocked too! - and that’s no slight on EB at all I feel.
Really, I’m not trying to win some kind of argument with you, nothing like that at all ,- it's the "poor showing" comment I take exception to.
My angle is that I’d just like you to consider the wider picture, just put EB into perspective and understand why they can’t meet with your suggestion?
I’ll say it again – I’d love to see racks of EB’s in all shops. I think that their guitars are the best out there.
But don’t castigate EB for not having shops worldwide brimming with ‘Balls – I believe (based on Sterlings comments over the last 10 years) that EB’s manufacturing set up, can’t support that.
Sterling is passionate about his company – read all his other blogs – he’s pretty unique out there in supporting his workforce in more ways than just paying their wages, and if he were to expand to the level to meet your suggestion– then having recently celebrated a Company 50th Anniversary, he would be unlikely to celebrate a 60th, and could let down his “family” of workers as the company struggled to meet the massive costs that such a large expansion would require.
I smile when I see the current tranche of guitar buyer, still buying guitars that basically mirror 50’s technology. Just lining up ready to hand over their cash for the “Designer label” guitars. It's a free world after all. My thoughts are that if we applied that principleof wanting to use old technology all the time to the car buying public they’d still be driving Model T Fords (and I'd be writting this with a feather).
(Caveat)
I’m not dissing Fender, Gibson as they are a big part of the guitar heritage
So I’ll stop my passionate ramblings …. And get back to work!!
I hope that there is something in my "third party" ramblings that help you see the wider picture and I accept that they won't extinguish your passion for Ernie Ball Guitars.
PS
I have talked to friends I have made over the last 40 years who manage/ work in guitar shops and to be a Gibson/Fender approved dealer you have to have an inventory of XXX guitars - if anybody out there can correct me - I don't believe this to be the case with Ernie Ball?
http://forums.ernieball.com/blogs/big-poppa/19-interaction-change-next.html
I did try googling largest guitar manufacturer by production but alas no luck. There are many “Top Ten” Guitar manufacturer lists (which I take with a pinch of salt as these are commonly based on opinion or mere conjecture) and I haven’t found one that includes EB in the top 10. I was shocked too! - and that’s no slight on EB at all I feel.
Really, I’m not trying to win some kind of argument with you, nothing like that at all ,- it's the "poor showing" comment I take exception to.
My angle is that I’d just like you to consider the wider picture, just put EB into perspective and understand why they can’t meet with your suggestion?
I’ll say it again – I’d love to see racks of EB’s in all shops. I think that their guitars are the best out there.
But don’t castigate EB for not having shops worldwide brimming with ‘Balls – I believe (based on Sterlings comments over the last 10 years) that EB’s manufacturing set up, can’t support that.
Sterling is passionate about his company – read all his other blogs – he’s pretty unique out there in supporting his workforce in more ways than just paying their wages, and if he were to expand to the level to meet your suggestion– then having recently celebrated a Company 50th Anniversary, he would be unlikely to celebrate a 60th, and could let down his “family” of workers as the company struggled to meet the massive costs that such a large expansion would require.
I smile when I see the current tranche of guitar buyer, still buying guitars that basically mirror 50’s technology. Just lining up ready to hand over their cash for the “Designer label” guitars. It's a free world after all. My thoughts are that if we applied that principleof wanting to use old technology all the time to the car buying public they’d still be driving Model T Fords (and I'd be writting this with a feather).
(Caveat)
I’m not dissing Fender, Gibson as they are a big part of the guitar heritage
So I’ll stop my passionate ramblings …. And get back to work!!
I hope that there is something in my "third party" ramblings that help you see the wider picture and I accept that they won't extinguish your passion for Ernie Ball Guitars.
PS
I have talked to friends I have made over the last 40 years who manage/ work in guitar shops and to be a Gibson/Fender approved dealer you have to have an inventory of XXX guitars - if anybody out there can correct me - I don't believe this to be the case with Ernie Ball?
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steevo
Well-known member
Ive spoken to a few owners of smaller stores and youre right, they dont stock the big names because they are required to hold too much stock. Im not knocking EBMM, my poor showing comment was maybe the wrong choice of words. I just think a little more in store advertising and maybe just one instrument as a demo would generate more sales/interest in their products. Its just my point of view as a customer and MM player
steevo
Well-known member
And thank you for the informed reply, i new alot of what you were saying anyway, obviously i dont know whether its possible financially to accomodate my suggestions.
Spudmurphy
Well-known member
Cheers Steevo. Regarding getting the EB brand in peoples faces I put this thread up recently
http://forums.ernieball.com/general-music-discussion/60350-how-about-music-man-flag-banner.html
so after reading that thread .... I can get "themed" flags for £5 for my festival site flag pole - there's loads out there for that price - and I was wondering whether EB would consider getting some of those produced? - I'm sure an initial production run of say 2000 would be snapped up by the public or used by shops and exhibitors. Yeah ... I'm passionate too!
http://forums.ernieball.com/general-music-discussion/60350-how-about-music-man-flag-banner.html
so after reading that thread .... I can get "themed" flags for £5 for my festival site flag pole - there's loads out there for that price - and I was wondering whether EB would consider getting some of those produced? - I'm sure an initial production run of say 2000 would be snapped up by the public or used by shops and exhibitors. Yeah ... I'm passionate too!
sanderhermans
Well-known member
have you seen this video or made it yourself? the guy in it says that exact same thing....
I can't say I feel the same way. its good to improve an instrument like going from a 3 bolt neck to a 6 bolt attachment because its more stable. but some stuff is just good the way it was originally designed.
would you really want all new innovations in one guitar? I find robot guitars that auto tune so ridiculous! just like "evertune" who would want to cut into a guitar if its not necessary... who would rather loose tone, sustain, ... to stay in tune? really what is wrong with a good solid bridge? also stuff like game changer technology is very innovative but you don't see many around because people don't need that much control over their pickup switching, its all very fancy but not a lot of people will pay extra for it, and IMO they are right. these added electronics, you hardly use, can only cause more trouble later on if in 40 years you need parts for em. keep it simple is what I say.
better get a great tone out of a basic single pickup instrument then have an auto tuning guitar with 100000 pickup combinations. you will only worry about finding the best tone and forget about actually playing!
musicman did really knock one out of the park on classic series imo, perfect balance between heritage and newer innovations!
Spudmurphy
Well-known member
Hi Sanderhermans
I’ll look at that video when I get home as you tube is "not very good" on my phone!
nah - not me on the video ( you have me intrigued now!)
Oh dear going off topic now sorry! I don't know whether you mean you disagree with Guitar technological improvement?
"Old Tecnology?" Well, I feel that I’m lucky enough to have seen a lot of old guitars that have been brought in for repair over the last 30+years – my very good friend(played in bands together for years) has a fantastic guitar repair business here in Cardiff open 6 days a week, and I'm usually around there most Saturday afternoons,- observing, learning, doing etc. When we looked at some old Fenders for example (other make guitars are available lol) they could be construed as being "quite rough". By that I mean that there were a lot of hand processes that resulted in deviation. Measurements taken on one 59 Strat would not be consistant with another 59 Strat. Bevels on the guitar are not consistant, pickup routing varies etc. Is that the secret of their mojo I wonder.
Yes some stuff is just good the way it was originally designed ... let me think?
Tuners? - They've changed
String Trees? - what are they?
Nut? - that's changed to a compensated affair.
Strings? They've changed - EB being innovative in changing the whole concept of guitar strings when Ernie Ball himself had his ideas that no other manufacturers would listen to
Pickups? - well they have changed a bit, and certainly their manufacturing process has changed. Gamechanger pickups although conventional in their manufacture takes it to another level in their switching control
Bridge - yup eg changed from 3 saddles to 6 on skinny stringed instruments
Pots - still pretty much the same really
2/3/5 way pickup switches - still the same I guess.
Frets - now have more choice.
Binding - EB uses poured binding
Wood/body shape/neck shape ... ...
So with all that pre ramble in mind, IMO, I can't see why people still feel that they need to play a guitar that has the same prpoerties from that era when modern guitars are made better and in some peoples eyes, feel and play better?
Hey, I have a wall calendar next to me with glossy pictures of old guitars - love looking at them, love looking under their hoods. So I am certainly not dissing old guitars - just like to think I've moved on in 45 years of playing and coverting guitars.
Improvements I embrace? -Modern technolgy such as CNC processing – great I say! Cuts down on deviation providing a very consistent process. Cuts down on labour within that cycle of the manufacturing process. - Resulting in great quality guitars (eg made by EB) brought in at an affordable price. Now all that robo/cnc processing still requires the human touch at the end of the process, to make a good guitar great – setting up, fret levelling, truss rod, final hand polishing, visual inspection and so forth. So I feel that an appropriate amount of modern technology, is being applied to the guitar manufacturing process at this moment in time.
To answer your question …Would I really want all new innovations in one guitar?
Well no I wouldn’t unless I had a real need for it.
If I were to pose this question to myself “What relatively modern innovation since the 50's must I have now?”
– It would have to be
. piezo (in some of my guitars),
.individual saddle adjustments,
. compensated bridge,
. truss rod adjustment "a la MM" – not having to take the neck off all the time as on early Fenders.
I applaud the R & D carried out by EB on their innovative Game Changer, and if that was an affordable option right now on this side of the pond, I would seriously contemplate that – I have to agree with you though, it hasn’t passed the passage of time test yet.
I would like to think that the extra cost of such an extra will be greatly reduced over that passage of time?
Now you've touched on a subject close to my heart Robo tuners? - I don’t know whether MM are thinking of going down that route? Are they?
I have them, so can speak from experience not perception.
I recently installed them on a guitar that I personally built for slide guitar. I play slide in a multitude of tunings, and the tuners get me in those different tunings in seconds.
In my home, I tune by ear, but in the heat of battle (on stage) it is sometimes difficult to tune accurately within the time frame between numbers. Heck, I have even been known to tune to the wrong open tuning.
The tuners I used require no invasive surgery on the guitar and do not weigh much more than a set of conventional tuners. I installed them and restrung - all in 20 minutes.
If I ever want to remove them and put then onto another guitar then you wouldn’t know that the original donor guitar had everhad them installed – no extra holes/routs/wiring.
Dare I say it, but even Robo Tuners have considerably improved since their inception.
IMHO, I believe that I could get a great tone out a 100,000+ combination gamechanger guitar also equipped with robo tuners – there’s no reason not to - and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the posability.
I don't think I've EVER written so much on one thread - but theres been topics here close to my heart .
... and I have a gig tonight, so I'd better get packing!!
I’ll look at that video when I get home as you tube is "not very good" on my phone!
nah - not me on the video ( you have me intrigued now!)
Oh dear going off topic now sorry! I don't know whether you mean you disagree with Guitar technological improvement?
"Old Tecnology?" Well, I feel that I’m lucky enough to have seen a lot of old guitars that have been brought in for repair over the last 30+years – my very good friend(played in bands together for years) has a fantastic guitar repair business here in Cardiff open 6 days a week, and I'm usually around there most Saturday afternoons,- observing, learning, doing etc. When we looked at some old Fenders for example (other make guitars are available lol) they could be construed as being "quite rough". By that I mean that there were a lot of hand processes that resulted in deviation. Measurements taken on one 59 Strat would not be consistant with another 59 Strat. Bevels on the guitar are not consistant, pickup routing varies etc. Is that the secret of their mojo I wonder.
Yes some stuff is just good the way it was originally designed ... let me think?
Tuners? - They've changed
String Trees? - what are they?
Nut? - that's changed to a compensated affair.
Strings? They've changed - EB being innovative in changing the whole concept of guitar strings when Ernie Ball himself had his ideas that no other manufacturers would listen to
Pickups? - well they have changed a bit, and certainly their manufacturing process has changed. Gamechanger pickups although conventional in their manufacture takes it to another level in their switching control
Bridge - yup eg changed from 3 saddles to 6 on skinny stringed instruments
Pots - still pretty much the same really
2/3/5 way pickup switches - still the same I guess.
Frets - now have more choice.
Binding - EB uses poured binding
Wood/body shape/neck shape ... ...
So with all that pre ramble in mind, IMO, I can't see why people still feel that they need to play a guitar that has the same prpoerties from that era when modern guitars are made better and in some peoples eyes, feel and play better?
Hey, I have a wall calendar next to me with glossy pictures of old guitars - love looking at them, love looking under their hoods. So I am certainly not dissing old guitars - just like to think I've moved on in 45 years of playing and coverting guitars.
Improvements I embrace? -Modern technolgy such as CNC processing – great I say! Cuts down on deviation providing a very consistent process. Cuts down on labour within that cycle of the manufacturing process. - Resulting in great quality guitars (eg made by EB) brought in at an affordable price. Now all that robo/cnc processing still requires the human touch at the end of the process, to make a good guitar great – setting up, fret levelling, truss rod, final hand polishing, visual inspection and so forth. So I feel that an appropriate amount of modern technology, is being applied to the guitar manufacturing process at this moment in time.
To answer your question …Would I really want all new innovations in one guitar?
Well no I wouldn’t unless I had a real need for it.
If I were to pose this question to myself “What relatively modern innovation since the 50's must I have now?”
– It would have to be
. piezo (in some of my guitars),
.individual saddle adjustments,
. compensated bridge,
. truss rod adjustment "a la MM" – not having to take the neck off all the time as on early Fenders.
I applaud the R & D carried out by EB on their innovative Game Changer, and if that was an affordable option right now on this side of the pond, I would seriously contemplate that – I have to agree with you though, it hasn’t passed the passage of time test yet.
I would like to think that the extra cost of such an extra will be greatly reduced over that passage of time?
Now you've touched on a subject close to my heart Robo tuners? - I don’t know whether MM are thinking of going down that route? Are they?
I have them, so can speak from experience not perception.
I recently installed them on a guitar that I personally built for slide guitar. I play slide in a multitude of tunings, and the tuners get me in those different tunings in seconds.
In my home, I tune by ear, but in the heat of battle (on stage) it is sometimes difficult to tune accurately within the time frame between numbers. Heck, I have even been known to tune to the wrong open tuning.
The tuners I used require no invasive surgery on the guitar and do not weigh much more than a set of conventional tuners. I installed them and restrung - all in 20 minutes.
If I ever want to remove them and put then onto another guitar then you wouldn’t know that the original donor guitar had everhad them installed – no extra holes/routs/wiring.
Dare I say it, but even Robo Tuners have considerably improved since their inception.
IMHO, I believe that I could get a great tone out a 100,000+ combination gamechanger guitar also equipped with robo tuners – there’s no reason not to - and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the posability.
I don't think I've EVER written so much on one thread - but theres been topics here close to my heart .
... and I have a gig tonight, so I'd better get packing!!
steevo
Well-known member
Lost how we changed topic haha
sanderhermans
Well-known member
Haha. Great luck on the gig and have fun! Well abouth that cnc for instance. It is a great tool for builders but imo it does take some uniqueness out of a guitar. Still love companys that do it all by hand but concistancy is of course much better when using cnc. And as for compensated nut and 3 vs 6 saddles... a guitar can be decently intonated without these newer inovatios just fine. The newer stuff just makes the intonation a bit more accurate but who really cares about 100% correct intonation when doing a gig? I still prefer a standard nut. It looks better and feels firmer to me. And they are easier to work on. 6 sadles is indeed an improvement. Locking tuners are the same story for me. They are handy but not needed. Just another turning part extra that can wear and break over a long time. What im saying is that all these inovations are fine, but they are like airco and seat heating in your car. You dont really need them and extra stuff sometimes means extra stuff that can break. Another inovation on guitars these days are frets that are bended to compensate and get 100% correct intonation accros the board. Imo these guitars are good fire wood. I cant imagine ever adjusting to crooked frets just to get perfect intonation acros the board. All this inovative stuff is often too much because everything that was wearthy changing or adding to a guitar was allready invented by the 80's.
Spudmurphy
Well-known member
Yeah Stevo - seems like I was on a mission (says Spud sat in his man cave on the forum when I should be rehearsing!!)
Well Sand' you took both barrels, and hats off to your reply - nice one! (says Spud plugged into an '81 MM amp , cos it's better than new amps lol.)
Well Sand' you took both barrels, and hats off to your reply - nice one! (says Spud plugged into an '81 MM amp , cos it's better than new amps lol.)
steevo
Well-known member
Well im visiting a few stores saturday, one is a MM dealer, might raise my point with a few of the guys there. Hopefully theyll have a few MM to play
