Help! Intonation/Setup Issue

[flingus]

Hi All,

Been reading this forum for a while but, finally signed up because I have a question in regards to my MM Axis Super Sport.

Long story short, I've started noticing it sounding out of tune when playing certain chords. Especially when going from your standard Em (02) to a bar G Chord (35). So, I checked the tuning on the guitar using both a TC Electronics G Major, and a Roland VG 99. In both cases, I can get all 6 strings in tune on both open and the 12th fret but, when I play the top two strings (E & A) starting at the 3rd fret, they slowly get sharp. So it seems, E & A, for the 3rd and 4th frets are out of tune no matter what. Hope this makes sense.

So, I took the guitar in to be setup/intonated/whatever. Basicly I told the tech to make it playable and to do whatever he needed to do to make the guitar play in tune, no matter what fret I play. I got it back Saturday, brought it home and I'm still having the same problem. Although, I have to say it does play better, and is not as far out of tune as it was. He said he did adjust the intonation, he also replaced some of the frets since they had some bad denting in them, and did some other small things like cleaning the electronics so I dont get static when switching from one pickup to another..

My question is... Am I being too picky? The 3rd and 4th frets are sharp but, not a lot. My hearing is not as good as it should be considering I play guitar but, it does seem to sound good now. I havent brought this up with the guitar tech yet because I wanted some advice before doing it, and to prepare myself for any 'excuses' I may here when/if I bring this up. If you think I should bring it up, is there maybe something I can suggest to fix the problem? Is this more of a truss rod issue then intonation? I've read online that basicly, if the harmonic on the 12th fret, and the note on the 12th fret are the same, the intonation is good to go. So is my intonation perfect but, possibly I have some other kind of problem??

Also, does anyone have a guitar where they play from open, all the way up every fret on each string and each note is showing on a tuner as being in tune?

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[ozzyrules]

Try this link to EBMM:
How do I set the intonation on my guitar?

 

[Rufedges]

Is it a hard-tail or trem? Shouldn't matter much, it is not a Floyd bridge either way. Getting intonnation correct is a tedious process, but once it is correct is sounds great. Has anyone else played it? How someone frets/experience/how good a player they are/etc. can affect the sound........I have heard some people playing a guitar that I SWORE was out of tune, only to pick it up myself, play it, and it was not out of tune and intonnation was spot on as well. Just a thought.

Now, first thing you need is a very good/sensitive tuner. I use a Peterson for intonnation........I have a TC Electronic on my pedal-board for live use, but it is nowhere as accurate as my Peterson. I lightly fret the note at the 5th and 17th fret, check it with the tuner to see if it is flat or sharp, and adjust the saddle back or foward as needed. It is amazing what a 1/16th of a turn on the screw can do.

When I first got my guitar, I did mess around with the truss-rod adjustment,......big mistake, just could'nt get it workable. Had to send it to EB customer service, they intonnated/adjusted, and actually did some work to a few of the frets, they said a couple of them needed it in order to get it right, however, the guitar was fine to me before I messed with the truss rod wheel.

 

[shredhed]

First time I bought a quality guitar many years ago I thought my tuning issues were over.

I found out rather disappointingly that there is no perfect guitar. You can have perfect 12th fret intonation but what you have to know is that the frets are compensated. I won't take the time or space to explain. You can look it up yourself.

Google this phrase "guitar even temperance" pretty interesting stuff.

What it all means is that with perfect intonation you still won't have every note up the neck be spot on. it' not possible. It sounds like your guy has it set up pretty well

 

[fbecir]

Hello and welcome

If your guitar tech made a good job, the problem you have is that you have too much strength in your fingers. I have the same problem if I play with light strings. The finger pressure can make your notes sharp. Try to play with a very light touch and hear if you are out of tune. If you are not out of tune, it means that when you play normally your touch is quite heavy and you go out of tune because of that.
Personally, I play with 10 - 52 strings because I have an heavy touch (and also because I play slide and with open tunings).
The other guy in my band has a lot of strength in his hands (he is a construction worker) and even with 11 - 52 strings he can get out of tune when he plays chords.

Thus perhaps it's time to try heavier strings !

 

[Spudmurphy]

I found out rather disappointingly that there is no perfect guitar. You can have perfect 12th fret intonation but what you have to know is that the frets are compensated. I won't take the time or space to explain. You can look it up yourself.

Google this phrase "guitar even temperance" pretty interesting stuff.

+1
If you get the intonnation set right then you play all the fretted notes on a guitar via a Peterson tuner for example, don't expect to see every note on the guitar "on the button" it just won't happen.
Trust the force Obi wan - get the basic tuning on the guitar via your tuner then trust your ears and make the final adjustments.

Welcome onboard and let's see some pics of your geetar.

 

[flingus]

Interesting...

First time I bought a quality guitar many years ago I thought my tuning issues were over.

I found out rather disappointingly that there is no perfect guitar. You can have perfect 12th fret intonation but what you have to know is that the frets are compensated. I won't take the time or space to explain. You can look it up yourself.

Google this phrase "guitar even temperance" pretty interesting stuff.

What it all means is that with perfect intonation you still won't have every note up the neck be spot on. it' not possible. It sounds like your guy has it set up pretty well

Thanks for the advice everyone.. (Hard Tail, locked down so it wont move btw.. Should have mentioned that in my first post!)

The guitar has already been inntonated so, thats not the issue...

I dont play too hard.. If that was an issue I would have the 'off tuning' issue on more than just two frets and two strings.

I may end up getting a better tuner at some point but, I do find it to be interesting that I have 4 tuners and they all give me the same results. I have a hard time believing that all 4 are innacurate, in the exact same way.

Currently am playing with whatever ernie ball strings end with .10 high E. So, they're kinda in the mid range I believe.. Not very thin, not chunky either.

I'm inclined to go with what Shredhed and Spudmurphy said.. I looked up "Equal Temperament" because I wasnt able to get anything from guitar even temperance. I did still find a lot of information out there though. I am going to keep searching when I get more time.

I think what I can take away from this is, long story short. (TOO LATE) Is, certain instruments just cannot be tuned 'perfectly'.

If anyone else has anything to add I would appreciate it. Been a good discussion!
I should also add, my guitar has been VERY good to me. I love my MM!

 

[shredhed]

My apologies. I reread you first post and see it's your lowest wound strings on the lower frets right? Sorry about that.

On wound strings they tend to fret sharp just because it is close to the nut and don't respond to getting stretched at that point. They go sharp easier. it's the fact that the nut has them suspended .00x" above the frets and fretting a note stretches the string. Low E is the worst about this phenomenon. My Y2D does this. I just have to be careful when fretting those notes. I could lower the nut and/or the neck relief, but there's only so much adjustment I can do before it starts buzzing.

I suggest to ask your tech to recheck the nut height. You could actually check it yourself. Hold down the 3rd fret and measure with a feeler gauge the distance from the top of fret one to the bottom whatever string - in this case the E. Personally I go for a height of .015" But that's just me.

Those are the "nuts and bolts" of it. It's more just a mechanical situation, the way guitars are made, and not a problem with yours per se'.
Good luck with it

 

[shredhed]

Oh and I have to add as well, my MMs have been beddy beddy good to me too!

 

[DrKev]

Guitars certainly can't be tuned "perfectly", it's always a compromise. The Music Man compensated nut helps a lot (to my ears anyway) and resolves much of the open chord/barre chord tuning issues. Equal Temperament means that an absolutely perfect guitar won't ever sound perfect but it will sound equally imperfect in very key. But Equal Temperament (ET) has nothing to do with intonation on guitars (at least in the meaning of intonation that guitars players normally use). The frets are laid out in ET and your tuner works in ET. If individual notes are reading sharp, it has nowt to do with ET.

Personally, I intonate my guitars by tuning to the 3rd fret and adjusting the saddles for an in-tune 15th fret. But no matter how you do it, make sure you tune and intonate with the guitar in your normal playing position, not laying on it's back on a table! and be very careful about your exact finger position and pressure. It's easy to pull a note slightly sharp of where we actually want it.

And yes, the best tuner you can afford is always money well spent. I love my PolyTune and in streaming mode it is accurate enough for setting intonation.

If it's a nut height issue it will be worst at the 1st fret. Besides, MM are renowned for their excellent nut setup and a nut needs to be seriously high to out the 3rd or 4th fret drastically out. If 3rd and 4th fret ONLY are causing problems, it's not the nut.

Something being out of tune on just the 3rd and 4th frets is a little odd. I would first check your pickups are not too close to the strings. The magnets can pull on the strings and weird stuff can happen, sometimes on just a few frets. DiMarzio recommends no closer than 5/64" (2.0mm) for the low E string. It's a good rule of thumb.

The other possibility is that you have a a very unusual case of two funky strings in the same pack. No manufacturing or QC process can be 100% reliable and sometimes we get a string that doesn't want to play by the same rules as the other strings! I once had a D-string that just refused to intonate properly. Simply changing the string solved the problem. (Or have I missed something and this a long term problem?)

 

[tommyindelaware]

......what he said......

but seriously ????
nobody can play w/ equal temperament. as soon as you strike a string.....it is pushed sharp and as it quiets down returns to pitch. the lighter your strings.....the more this applies.

Guitars certainly can't be tuned "perfectly", it's always a compromise. The Music Man compensated nut helps a lot (to my ears anyway) and resolves much of the open chord/barre chord tuning issues. Equal Temperament means that an absolutely perfect guitar won't ever sound perfect but it will sound equally imperfect in very key. But Equal Temperament (ET) has nothing to do with intonation on guitars (at least in the meaning of intonation that guitars players normally use). The frets are laid out in ET and your tuner works in ET. If individual notes are reading sharp, it has nowt to do with ET.

Personally, I intonate my guitars by tuning to the 3rd fret and adjusting the saddles for an in-tune 15th fret. But no matter how you do it, make sure you tune and intonate with the guitar in your normal playing position, not laying on it's back on a table! and be very careful about your exact finger position and pressure. It's easy to pull a note slightly sharp of where we actually want it.

And yes, the best tuner you can afford is always money well spent. I love my PolyTune and in streaming mode it is accurate enough for setting intonation.

If it's a nut height issue it will be worst at the 1st fret. Besides, MM are renowned for their excellent nut setup and a nut needs to be seriously high to out the 3rd or 4th fret drastically out. If 3rd and 4th fret ONLY are causing problems, it's not the nut.

Something being out of tune on just the 3rd and 4th frets is a little odd. I would first check your pickups are not too close to the strings. The magnets can pull on the strings and weird stuff can happen, sometimes on just a few frets. DiMarzio recommends no closer than 5/64" (2.0mm) for the low E string. It's a good rule of thumb.

The other possibility is that you have a a very unusual case of two funky strings in the same pack. No manufacturing or QC process can be 100% reliable and sometimes we get a string that doesn't want to play by the same rules as the other strings! I once had a D-string that just refused to intonate properly. Simply changing the string solved the problem. (Or have I missed something and this a long term problem?)

 

[flingus]

Strings or Pickups??

Well, I wish I could get my guitar 'upgraded' to the compensated nut but.. From what I've read on these forums that is not possible right? My MM DOB is Sept 1999.

I can certainly try changing the strings, I'm not really sure how long I've had this problem. A series of events that would take me too long to explain led to me checking the inntonation. Anyway, throwing on a new pack of strings is certainly worth a try. I actually thought myself, that it was really odd that it was only affecting my two lower strings on two frets. Just seems odd that the rest of the guitar is almost PERFECTLY in tune and these two strings, two frets are a little sharp.

So, I will double check the nut just to be maticulous. I'll also check the pickup height. Although my normal pickups seem to be pretty far from the strings.
One thing I didn't mention, in a attempt to keep my posts brief is.. I just added a GK-3 Roland pickup to my guitar, I wonder if the magnets are too close to the top two strings and thats what is causing all of this! Will check tonight.. If thats all it is I'm going to feel a little dumb.

Thanks again everyone.

Guitars certainly can't be tuned "perfectly", it's always a compromise. The Music Man compensated nut helps a lot (to my ears anyway) and resolves much of the open chord/barre chord tuning issues. Equal Temperament means that an absolutely perfect guitar won't ever sound perfect but it will sound equally imperfect in very key. But Equal Temperament (ET) has nothing to do with intonation on guitars (at least in the meaning of intonation that guitars players normally use). The frets are laid out in ET and your tuner works in ET. If individual notes are reading sharp, it has nowt to do with ET.

Personally, I intonate my guitars by tuning to the 3rd fret and adjusting the saddles for an in-tune 15th fret. But no matter how you do it, make sure you tune and intonate with the guitar in your normal playing position, not laying on it's back on a table! and be very careful about your exact finger position and pressure. It's easy to pull a note slightly sharp of where we actually want it.

And yes, the best tuner you can afford is always money well spent. I love my PolyTune and in streaming mode it is accurate enough for setting intonation.

If it's a nut height issue it will be worst at the 1st fret. Besides, MM are renowned for their excellent nut setup and a nut needs to be seriously high to out the 3rd or 4th fret drastically out. If 3rd and 4th fret ONLY are causing problems, it's not the nut.

Something being out of tune on just the 3rd and 4th frets is a little odd. I would first check your pickups are not too close to the strings. The magnets can pull on the strings and weird stuff can happen, sometimes on just a few frets. DiMarzio recommends no closer than 5/64" (2.0mm) for the low E string. It's a good rule of thumb.

The other possibility is that you have a a very unusual case of two funky strings in the same pack. No manufacturing or QC process can be 100% reliable and sometimes we get a string that doesn't want to play by the same rules as the other strings! I once had a D-string that just refused to intonate properly. Simply changing the string solved the problem. (Or have I missed something and this a long term problem?)

 

[DrKev]

as soon as you strike a string.....it is pushed sharp and as it quiets down returns to pitch. the lighter your strings.....the more this applies.

Yep, the ideal guitar is just that - an "ideal". The reality is that we get as close as we can and the result is usually pretty good. Those of us with sensitive ears learn to live with the result. Do a web search for Jack Endino's blog article on tuning guitars in the studio. Very enlightening!

I wish I could get my guitar 'upgraded' to the compensated nut but.. From what I've read on these forums that is not possible right?

Correct. It's not a simple matter of dropping a new nut in the slot - its width and position relative to the first fret is different too. But remember, the compensated nut didn't make older instruments obsolete. Your axis (on the other 128 frets at least) is proof of that! Many of people with a compensated nut don't notice the difference, and some of us with bat hearing love it. But 99.9% of all recorded guitar music is recorded on standard instruments - with a little care and attention (and yes, sometimes frustration and gnashing of teeth) most if it sounds perfectly acceptable.

throwing on a new pack of strings is certainly worth a try

Old strings don't hold their tune, and often don't intonate too well. Changing those two strings might make all the difference. It's my first thing to look at if a weird problem turns up. And stay away from the cheapest brands, quality does make a difference!

And of course the old refrain - if new strings don't fix it, get in touch with customer service and see what they suggest.

 

[LawDaddy]

<snip>

Personally, I intonate my guitars by tuning to the 3rd fret and adjusting the saddles for an in-tune 15th fret. But no matter how you do it, make sure you tune and intonate with the guitar in your normal playing position, not laying on it's back on a table! and be very careful about your exact finger position and pressure. It's easy to pull a note slightly sharp of where we actually want it.
<snip>

Interesting, I intonate my guitars so the notes in the lower and middle registers of the neck are in tune if not a tad flat, this results in some of the higher register notes falling flat. My ears hurt most when notes are sharp, particularly the 3rds of chords sounding on the B and G strings. So I compensate by making sure the middle of the neck and lower is never sharp. Like Tommy said above, the notes will briefly sound sharp, so I err on the flat side. This works for my ears.

But my point is the OP may have to find his own personal method of intonating. A Peterson strobe tuner is a must, I found one used at my local GC. If you have an iPhone or iPad, get the Peterson app.

The OP may wish to try a set of heavier gauge strings with a wound third string, they intonate deliciously. Once you hear a wound third, you may never go back. I have one guitar setup this way for gigs where I'm playing mainly rhythm.

Not to sound like a fanboi, but since this is their site I guess I can. I find EBMM necks to be most favorable to intonation for my ears, and I find them easy to intonate. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back. My '90s EVH has fantastic intonation, even with that Floyd thingy I never use. My brand-spanking new Morse Y2D, my first with a compensated nut, is a little better with the open chords. I would say experiment with different methods, you'll get it dialed in.

 

[nobozos]

Here you go.
Stagepass.com - How To Tune The Guitar to perfection

 

[DrKev]

Thanks nobozos, that's another great article that everyone should read!

 

[ScoobySteve]

Super awesome thread, article and input. I'd also like to expand on some already mentioned points. When people say tune, it should be noted that it should be tuned after the strings have been played and warmed up a bit. Also tune according to play style. Be concious of how much pressure you apply to a string when fretting a string. Many people ive knwon are quite focused when tuning and resultingly apply a bit extra pressure making them tune a bit sharp. And always tune to a picking (or plucking strength) that is normal to the way you actually play. I have three guitars and tune them differently.

For example, for my Silo I play a heavy right hand style and tune to the pick attack. I play heavy gauge strings with high action so I also tune with relatively high pressure on the fret. On my acoustic I tune a little between the initial attack and sustain after a finger pluck. I play mainly lead on my 25th and only tune to the pick attack. Super low action on 10's so tuning with relatively light pressure on the fret. Some purists always endorse tuning to the initial attack but I think it really depends on how you play, and I play very differently on all my guitars.