New ALbert Lee Question

[Cal Webway]

(I liked it so much-- traded a 4 mo old Anderson for it!)


1.) I've noticed thru the yrs that the saddle height for a medium action or even low action on the AL's -- the saddles are quite high/ a high break angle.
I like a low break angle for my action. (strings still seem not too taut though!)
Comments from y'all??


2.) Fret bevels are a bit too much in. Both E's-- not alot of room even with strings pushed over on saddles. Do most AL's run this way??



I was willing to forego the Anderson perfection for an instrument that feels and sounded better-- and still has excellent build quailty,

 

[jamminjim]

Jamminjim says

HI Cal, welcome to the EBMM forum

I'm gonna take a stab at replying ......

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking regarding string break angle over the bridge saddles. On my Al's the break angles are a little steep on the big E and G strings, due to the intonation settings. Are you saying that even though you have lowered the saddles to your string height preference that the break angles still seem steep? Why would a steep break angle be a bad thing? What is it affecting in your case?

Looking at my Als I notice the fret bevels are pretty wide and come inward on the fret a ways. More so than on my Subs for sure. Since it's an artist model it must be because Albert likes and wants the frets beveled that way. His preference; why I don't know but maybe someone else does. As far as I know Albert doesn't do alot of string bending. He's a picker so maybe a large bevel isn't concerning to him for the reasons it is to you. The larger bevels do make the edge of the fretboard smoother for the hand to glide up and down the neck I guess. Less level fret area though, you're right about that. ARe you running strings off the board more-so on the Al? One things for sure - when a string does go off the edge it comes right back on without snagging, lol. Pretty smooth bevels. Thanks for pointing this out. Don't know why but I didn't notice this before.
Anyone know why Albert has such a large bevel on his frets?

 

[Cal Webway]

Thanks 4 your thorough reply!!

Yes I do bend ALOT. I've pushed the string in, on the saddles-- that helps alot. Not going off fb.

Break angle: Yes-- all the AL's I have seen thru the years-- the saddles are jacked up high-- for medium or low action:

This has an effect lke a LP tail piece: When you torque down the TP it makes the strings a little more taut- making bending little more resistant, and to me-- brings out more highs.
However: On my AL-- it bends very easy, and none of the stringent highs are there.

The last 10+ yrs - I have off and on had some of my Strats and Teles routed out in the neck pocket to lower the neck a bit, thus lowering break angle.
Extreme-- yes!!!
But there is a looser feel in bending and in general-- with more mids and bass coming thru!

 

[Cal Webway]

btt


?

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

The AL ships from the factory with 10-13-16-26-36-46. Have you tried putting a set of 9-42 on it to facilitate bending?

I wouldn't consider the AL to have a "high break angle"

 

[agt]

When you torque down the TP it makes the strings a little more taut- making bending little more resistant, and to me-- brings out more highs.

So you are saying that, all else equal, a steeper break angle over the bridge saddle equates to more tension and highs?

Interesting idea. I've never considered this. Would the implication be that a strings-through-the-body or strings-through-the-tremolo block bridge would exhibit these characteristics more and a Floyd Rose bridge less? Honestly, I've never noticed this correlation, but I will be on the look out. It's an interesting idea.

I own a few Balls and, for what it's worth, the bridge saddle/break angle on the AL is no different than on my others having a similar strings-through-the-body bridge (Silo, Axis Sport). Action is 4/64ths on all of them with 11s.

Is your truss rod properly adjusted? In other words, could it be that the bridge saddles are too high by way of compensating for truss rod adjustment? Just a thought.

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

So you are saying that, all else equal, a steeper break angle over the bridge saddle equates to more tension and highs?
...

That doesn't make sense to me, either.

A string of a given diameter, set length, and tuned to a specific pitch, will have a specific tension. Changing the angle at which the string arrives/departs an endpoint of the set length should have no bearing on the overall tension of that string.

By having a high or low break angle, the only difference would be the actual downward pressure on the saddle & or nut. Personally I can't perceive this difference while playing.

When I string up guitars of the same scale length with a Floyd, hardtail, or other tremolo, and put the same gauge strings on each one, the only difference I feel in bending is from the fretwire & fretboard radius.

Maybe that is what you are feeling on the AL - a different fretwire and/or radius, and not "break angle"

 

[beej]

Doesn't make sense to me either.

If you change the saddle height, at worst your going to throw the intonation off a bit due a minor change in the string length. Anything more severe and you'd re-intonate so the scale length was back where you started.

Seems to me that the only noticeable effect of changing the saddle height would be a change in action.

 

[Cal Webway]

Folks--

my analogy of a high break angle is comparable with the stop tailpice on Gibson type guitars.
Less angle ='s less pressure exerted at the sadlles, as more angle ='s ....more.
THe feel and bendability of the strings is effected.... as is the sound.
(we've all seen older type of those guitars where a steep tp angle has torqued down and twisted the saddle posts)

Play around with shimming at the headstock (less break angle would result).

I bend like a mofro. Neck is almost dead straight. I use 9-42 with a 15 G.

 

[beej]

I can sort of see where you're coming from. The angle could potentially increase friction at the joint (nut or bridge) which could affect back and forth movement of the string. I can see a case for it affecting tension when you bend. Would be interesting to actually measure this.

But that said- when we translate this to the AL there's a considerable angle as the strings pass through the body/trem block, perpendicular to the fretboard. So I can't see how a few degrees would make any practical difference.

 

[Spudmurphy]

For what it's worth - I bend a lot and have never broken a string. I also find it much easier to bend/vibrato on the Al's than on my Les Paul which has the stoppiece flat onto the body.

 

[Cal Webway]

Not talking string breakage
Reread what I have posted.

I started doing lower break angle on my elecs in the 90's.

When Erlewine came out with his fine 'tweaking your electric' book 6-7 yrs ago, there is a section where Buzz Feiten talks about shimming at the HEADSTOCK END-- every bolt-on.

Buzz then discourses on how this tone magic does has this mojo thing, etc. !! ( He has initially done this to a dead sounding Tele, and the this gave it tone).

What I think he was experiencing is like what I have said: More fundementals coming thru-- a little more bass/mids-- and a better 'feel' on the strings- with the lowered break angle.

 

[Big Poppa]

Cal What works for you is what works.....Ive been doing this longer than Oprah and I never argue with someone who feels something.

I would never argue with Eric Johnson when he claimed that he could hear the difference between a brass jack and a chrome plated one. THe is zero to back him up, but he believes it.

Now lets take weight......forever Les Pauls were the holy grail because of the heavy weight.....Heavy wwght =sustain....right? THen Holdsworth comes along with a feather light guitar made of bass wood and it sustains for days....evh is into holdsworth and the rest is history except that Holdsworth doesnt get the credit for a paradigm shift in how we achieve sustain. Evh does. Im in the the lighter the better camp.

Many bass players swear that the holy grail is strings through body. I have recorded them both and studied the results and there is no science behind it.

SO you can take your break angle and say that it has different tension...(which it does not, not arguing just the science backs me up) I say that the increased break angle is giving you a true starting point for the string and that the downward pressure that the break angle causes is giving you a string that vibrates more due to the pressure of the angle. from that anchoring starting point you will capture more of what the string has to offer.

Remember if you plugged you nose and closed you eyes apples taste like onions.

It is what works for you. Just dont be afraid to test your theories along with everything else that goes with the growth and evolution or your playing journey.....

 

[Spudmurphy]

Not talking string breakage
Reread what I have posted.

Well you did ask for comments - sorry if it's not the exact comments you were after. - I thought that the comment re vibrato/bending on the LP was of some relevance?
.. and if you were stood infront of me and talked to me like that I'd ask you to step outside

I know you only been posting a short while - but we do have better manners than that on this forum.

 

[Jimmyb]

Well you did ask for comments - sorry if it's not the exact comments you were after.
.. and if you were stood infront of me and talked to me like that I'd ask you to step outside

I know you only been posting a short while - but we do have better manners than that on this forum.

Oooh, get him!!

 

[Big Poppa]

no lets all be nice and calm I appreciate spud and carls position......Every guitar has nuances that you either can get on with or not. The problem is that if they are deep personal opinions it doesnt make sense to solicit advice unless it is to agree with you.....

 

[Cal Webway]

What I wrote was not meant to be offensive-- I can now easliy see how it would be
that way!!

WHen I said re-read what I wrote-- sincerely meant that, as I brought quite a bit up:
USUALLY people want a higher break angle-- ( an extra benefit of the more common shim at the pup end of the pocket!!) so the mindset commonly with "shim" at the neck pocket is at that end. of the pocket

Step outside....?? I'm 54..... my diaper would fall off!!

 

[Big Poppa]

Ill be 54 in a month...maybe we can buy diapers in bulk!

 

[Colin]

Cal What works for you is what works.....Ive been doing this longer than Oprah and I never argue with someone who feels something.

I would never argue with Eric Johnson when he claimed that he could hear the difference between a brass jack and a chrome plated one. THe is zero to back him up, but he believes it.

Now lets take weight......forever Les Pauls were the holy grail because of the heavy weight.....Heavy wwght =sustain....right? THen Holdsworth comes along with a feather light guitar made of bass wood and it sustains for days....evh is into holdsworth and the rest is history except that Holdsworth doesnt get the credit for a paradigm shift in how we achieve sustain. Evh does. Im in the the lighter the better camp.

Many bass players swear that the holy grail is strings through body. I have recorded them both and studied the results and there is no science behind it.

SO you can take your break angle and say that it has different tension...(which it does not, not arguing just the science backs me up) I say that the increased break angle is giving you a true starting point for the string and that the downward pressure that the break angle causes is giving you a string that vibrates more due to the pressure of the angle. from that anchoring starting point you will capture more of what the string has to offer.

Remember if you plugged you nose and closed you eyes apples taste like onions.

It is what works for you. Just dont be afraid to test your theories along with everything else that goes with the growth and evolution or your playing journey.....

great post BP, I never stop learning here

 

[Cal Webway]

10 years after I had been shimming or having pocket routed a smidge lower--
I read that piece about Buzz Feiten doing it for all his bolt-on (he instead uses shims).
I didn't necessarily feel 'validated' -- but knew I wasn't crazy in the tone and bending feel improvements.... for me!!!!.