Possible Stupid Question # (Oh I lost Count)

[Raz]

OK SteveB after our little discussion I got a brainstorm, and hopefully this will help others. Learning one scale will yield knowledge of atleast 7 scales. Yes that's right. With the diatonic (7) scale(s) they are all relative, change the STARTING POSITION and you have a brand new scale. Here look at this chart I just made, off the top of my head, simply by counting, using C MAJOR (IONIAN) as the reference.

Here it is on the fretboard:

Notice for example the low E string. So if we are playing a scale on that string, starting on the FIRST FRET , looking at the chart we see it's a LYDIAN - F -w -G- w -A -w -B -h- C- w -D- w - E. Or if you're a position junkie, Ist, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 12th. Now you wouldn't play the scale on the one string so that's why we memorize the pattern.

 

[SteveB]

Raz,

Well done. Indeed, by learning the major scale you have inherently learned 7 modes (sometimes called "church modes"), depending on which degree of the major scale you start playing.

Do to Do = ionian "major"
Re to Re = dorian
Mi to Mi = phrygian
Fa to Fa = lydian
Sol to Sol = mixolydian
La to La = aeolian ("natural minor")
Ti to Ti = locrian

 

[tommyindelaware]

Raz,

Well done. Indeed, by learning the major scale you have inherently learned 7 modes (sometimes called "church modes"), depending on which degree of the major scale you start playing.

Do to Do = ionian "major"
Re to Re = dorian
Mi to Mi = phrygian
Fa to Fa = lydian
Sol to Sol = mixolydian
La to La = aeolian ("natural minor")
Ti to Ti = locrian

the real trick to learning modes is to learn how they SOUND when they are all started at the same note......or KEY.

 

[SteveB]

the real trick to learning modes is to learn how they SOUND when they are all started at the same note......or KEY.

Exactly! And solfeggio (the example I gave) is used for precisely that purpose, hearing what things sound like. My old theory teacher.. he could sight read anything and sing it in solfeggio. We did our best to try and keep up, but I never did get very good at it.

(there are names for the 'flats' and 'sharps', too but I can't remember them. I think the flat of Sol is "Si" if I remember correctly.)

 

[Raz]

Exactly! And solfeggio (the example I gave) is used for precisely that purpose, hearing what things sound like. My old theory teacher.. he could sight read anything and sing it in solfeggio. We did our best to try and keep up, but I never did get very good at it.

(there are names for the 'flats' and 'sharps', too but I can't remember them. I think the flat of Sol is "Si" if I remember correctly.)

This is why I like notes on the fretboard diagram, I sing, say the notes as I practise the scale

 

[savannah_sean]

When I think about how much music theory I know, I'm reminded of that Steve Martin record ("wild and crazy guy" I think it is") where he says "In college, you learn just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life..."

I know a little theory, and studied jazz guitar for about a year in high school. I remember getting so worked up about what was "correct" and "incorrect" that I never trusted my ear, so now I try to focus less on "I have to play these scales over these chords" and more on "these are good note choices, and these aren't". I manage to find an awful lot of the bad choices when I'm improvising though...

I do have a theory question that I think about from time to time, maybe one of you guys can help me with this. I have this Scott Henderson video, where he discusses a lot of aspects of improvising. He says things like "if you're soloing over a c-major7 chord, you can play notes from the D, E, or A pentatonic scales" Now, I understand that, because those pentatonics are embedded in the dorian, phrygian and natural minor scales relative to C, so they are all "inside" notes.

But, later, he is talking about soloing over dominant-seventh chords. He starts with "you can obviously use the mixolydian mode", etc. which makes sense. But, then he says "there really aren't any pentatonic scales that work over a dominant seventh chord"

My question is: why not? If I'm soloing over D-7, I'm thinking "this is mixolydian relative to G, so I can also play A-dorian, B-phrygian, or E-aeolian scales...so aren't the pentatonic scales OK too?"

Also, I like playing a pentatonic off the root over a dominant 7th chord. If I'm playing 12-bar blues in A, for instance, I like to combine phrases using A mixolydian as well as A-pentatonic.

 

[SteveB]

Sean,

Is your "D-7" a Dominant 7th chord, or a Major 7th chord?

Dominant 7th chord = major triad + minor seventh
Major 7th chord = major triad + major seventh

 

[savannah_sean]

Sean,

Is your "D-7" a Dominant 7th chord, or a Major 7th chord?

Dominant 7th chord = major triad + minor seventh
Major 7th chord = major triad + major seventh

Steve,

I was referring to dominant 7: D, F#, A, C

 

[SteveB]

Sean,

I can't think of why a pentatonic scale wouldn't work over a dominant 7th. I'm scribbling away like a fool now, taxing my decades-old memory of this stuff, and I'm coming up blank.

 

[savannah_sean]

Steve,

well, that's alright- maybe it has to do with the fact that those pentatonic scales don't outline all of the notes in the dominant 7th chord- like, if I'm playing A pentatonic over d-dom7, I miss the F#, which, being the 3 of D, sounds really good over the D7 chord.

But it still doesn't really make sense to me, especially since he (Scott Henderson) goes on to talk about playing "outside" and he says something like "when you go outside the chord, you can really play anything you want, as long as you play it convincingly and with good phrasing"

He goes on to play some crazy examples, like E-flat Locrian over a c-major 7 chord or something, and the way he does it, it sounds great.

 

[kbaim]

I think I heard Yngwie uses the A Hole-ian.

 

[koogie2k]

I think I heard Yngwie uses the A Hole-ian.

Yep....and I saw him use it....hehehehee....

 

[The new guy]

THE THING IS .... its important to know your sh** AROUND THE INSTRUMENT its talk another lingo....if you get what i am saying
its saves time and money....BUT
some amazing gtr players don't know notes for example..."allan holdsworth"...
whould you believe that ???????????

what i'm saying is....
its no big deal if you dont know theory but allways remember that you are limited!!!!!

 

[jazzbo jim]

Perhaps when Henderson says "no pentatonic 'works' over the dom7" he means no pentaonic suitably outlines the harmonic content of the chord.
Specifically, the tritone (F# and C natural in this case) has a strong tendency to resolve (to either G and B or F and D flat). In order to outline the harmonic "push" convincingly, the choice of the pentatonic scale is probably too ambiguous to do the job.
Just my $0.02

 

[Raz]

OK so I want to introduce one more thing, and that's chords. In a second we will look at another chart, that at first will appear confusing, but once you start mapping things out, you'll see just how easy it is to build chords. First off we start with Triads, which consist of 3 notes.
A major triad consists of the First(root), the third and the fifth. (please see diagram). As an example, let's use C maj.

C-(C#/Db)-D-(D#/Eb)-E-F-(F#/Gb)-G-(G#/Ab)-A-(A#/Bb)-B-C
-----------w---------w-h---------w----------w---------w-h
1-----------2---------3-4----------5----------6----------7

So with this basic formula in mind we can build any chord.
C minor triad, just drop the third one 1/2 step. Suspended triads, there's no third so we replace it with the second (sus2) or the 4th(sus4).
Seventh chords, no sweat. Let's start with the minor as there is one type. Starting with the minor triad, add the minor 7th...that's it.
Now major sevenths there are two types:
Add a major 7th to a major triad. Cmaj7
Add a flat 7 to a major triad, and it's a dominant 7th. Written C7
The same applies for sixths and 6/9ths
Let's look at the chart

 

[tommyindelaware]

somebody........................please make it stop !!!!!!!!!!!!

i love watching theory discussions.........

i remember when someone told me that G double sharp wasn't always A ...............i didn't want to learn anymore theory............

 

[Raz]

somebody........................please make it stop !!!!!!!!!!!!

i love watching theory discussions.........

i remember when someone told me that G double sharp wasn't always A ...............i didn't want to learn anymore theory............

We know you don't need the theory Tommy, we've all seen your chops at work (oh what nice chops they were), this thread is geared more towards the has bins, the have nots and the will nots, like me

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

I havent understood a word of this theory talk! Yet I can stil play everything that I want and play 3 to 4 gigs a week.

I dont ever feel limited in my playing.

 

[Raz]

I havent understood a word of this theory talk! Yet I can stil play everything that I want and play 3 to 4 gigs a week.

I dont ever feel limited in my playing.

Congrats bro, and count yourself lucky...there are some of us that, although we can get by, with theory we can get by better

 

[SteveB]

still going strong

So, I received a very nice email back from my former music theory teacher. He is retired from that job now, but says he is busier than ever.

Dig this event that he put together for his Cybermusic Academy:

Last year we had a fun project in collaboration with the Philadelphia Classical Symphony and the Partners in Distance Learning. One of the units I developed titled "how to write a fanfare" was distributed in conjunction with a composition contest. Students from all over sent in fanfares they composed. We picked the best ones and the students and their families were brought to Philadelphia where the Philadelphia Classical Symphony performed and recorded the fanfares. We had a reception, round table discussion and video interviews. Everyone had a good time.

He's the Big Poppa of composition!