Power Amp Tone?

[jeffrey]

Okay, this may sound strange, but in my 18 or so years of playing guitar, thousands of gigs, thousands of years of studio time and 7 years managing a guitar store, I've always played through just the power amp section (or directly into a power amp) as part of a tone test too.

My theory is simple: if the power amp section sounds bad, it's not going to do much for the final tone. If it sounds good, all the better.

I've judged a number of amp purchases on this criteria and never been disappointed.

In short: I've yet to hear an amp with crappy sounding poweramp section that sounds good. And I've yet to hear an amp with a great sounding poweramp section that sounded horrible.

A friend of mine argued with me that my listening to the poweramp section is pointless as it's designed only to work with a preamp and won't sound right without a preamp.

By his logic, he feels a poor sounding poweramp might sound brilliant with a preamp and that a brilliant sounding poweramp might sound horrible with a poweramp. This made no sense to me.

To me, good tone is good tone. Bad tone is bad tone. I don't care where it is in the signal chain. I think each piece of equipment in the signal chain should have good tone.

He has very limited experience (plays at his church sometimes and other than that never left his bedroom). I have pretty extensive experience as a touring musican with original bands and years in the musicians union in New Orleans as well as doing retail.

So what do you guys think?

Does the sound of a poweramp with a guitar plugged straight into it (of course adjusting the volume so as not to distort the input, but I figured that was a given; although some poweramps like the Mesa 2:90 have a 'Guitar' pad on the input) matter at all?

Or is it irrelevant and it only matters what it sounds like with a preamp?

I'm curious to see how this discussion pans out.

 

[SteveB]

Jeffrey,

There can be little doubt that the power amp affects the overall tone.

I have a rackmount power amp (Peavey Classic 120/120). It was originally a 6L6 tube set in there. I had to have it repaired once, and while it was in the shop I had it re-tubed (and re-biased) using EL34's instead of 6L6's.

The difference in the sound was *very* noticeable.

I always liked this power amp for the very reason you mentioned, it sounds good all by itself.

So my two cents would be that the power amp is a factor in the overall tone, even though that is not its stated purpose.

 

[jaxadam]

It's kind of like taking great effects and running them through crappy speakers. You're going to get crappy results.

I have used different power amps with the exact same effects set-up, and there is a huge difference. Like Steve said, there is even a noticable difference in just changing tubes in the same power amp.

 

[mhorse]

A friend of mine argued with me that my listening to the poweramp section is pointless as it's designed only to work with a preamp and won't sound right without a preamp.

Here's a simple piece of logic that defies your friend's argument:

If we're talking about power amp here, the designers had no way of knowing which preamp it will be used with, and preamps are quite different in properties. It seems like it would be much easier to just create a power amp that sounds good by itself then collect every possible preamp under the sun and make sure they work well with the power amp.

If we're talking about regular amp, you'd have to play into effects return jack, right? Then the amp was designed with effects in mind, and effects can be just as different as preamps. The argument above applies just as well here.

It's a little different if your amp doesn't have an effect loop.... but then there's no way for you test out the power amp section (unless you want to take it apart).

My 2c

 

[beej]

There's a lot to generating "good sound" - wood, pickups, cable, preamp, power amp, speakers, etc.

I'd say everything has to sound good together to give you "your" sound. No point nitpicking about one item in the signal chain.

And yeah, I've heard some crappy amps that sound tremendous with the right player in front of them. Just check out the Blues Saraceno video for the Tweak Fuzz where he's playing through a Sears amp

 

[Adwex]

Interesting topic. I have 2 rackmount tube power amps, one 6L6, the other EL34. I never thought of plugging the guitar in directly, think I'll try that when I get home. Once I plugged my CD player into the EL34 amp and used it to play cd's just to see how it would sound, it wasn't bad.

 

[jeffrey]

Hey, great replies so far. Seems like most you guys share the same sentiment I do.

I look at it this way: the power amp, or power amp section, should have a good tone to start with.

To me it's just fundemental, it's the foundation.

Common sense to me.

 

[beej]

Everything should have a good tone to start with. (Or rather, a tone you like.) Not just the power amp.

Garbage in = garbage out.

 

[Tim O'Sullivan]

Whilst the power amp is important, so are all the other pieces of the chain. No point having a great power amp, and nasty pre-amp or speakers or cab. I think a power amp in isolation is not really a fair judge of how the rig will sound.

I like cheeseburgers, but that processed cheese they put in them isnt the best on its own! Hardly a stilton!

 

[jeffrey]

Well, no. I wasn't insinuating that the power amp dictated the end sound. But what I'd said was, listening to the tone of it is as important as anything else in the chain (guitar, preamp, speakers, etc).

 

[old_metal_head]

All I know is I have a Mesa Boogie Single Recto and it makes all of my guitars sound good. Some sound better than others. Burstbucker Pro pickups in a Les Paul scream. Tone Zone pickups in an RG rock. I've even played my acoustic throught it on the clean channel, and that kicked ass.

To get the best sound out of this amp I prefer EMG pickups. The seem to really let it rip.

I've had many guitars but only this one amp. I think the amplification is probably the single most important key to "my" sound. Then the guitar parts, and my crappy playing.

 

[Spudmurphy]

I've had a Marshall (my second one) since '87 and have had other valve amps before this.

I hadn't played "in anger" for a number of years but kinda came out of semi retirement.
Playing in a different style to my earlier days.

I no longer liked the sound of Les Paul through the Marshall and started using my other "Tele Style" guitar. Still I was unsure about the sound. Don't get me wrong the Marshall amp really cranks it up and has rave reviews on the net.

I bought a Pod XT and I run it through the return loop of the amp - akin to the Pod being the pre amp and the Marshall the power amp.
It has been transformed!!! it really sounds like a Fender Amp and has other guises as well.
So in my experience the power amp stage isn't the "be all" and "end all" . It sure as hell contributes one heck of a lot but can be helped out a lot with a good pre amp too.
Just my humble 2 pence worth.

 

[old_metal_head]

Pod

I injected a POD into the power amp section of my amp. It sounded okay.

I think the POD only approximates the modeled amp/cab combinations. I can always hear some digital artifacts.

The POD sounds best when it is connected to an amplification section that does not "color" the sound. I used a Crown power amp and some JBL SR speakers and it sounded loads better. I assume because the sound reinforcement equipment is more transparent.

The POD is by far more versatile.

 

[Spudmurphy]

I injected a POD into the power amp section of my amp. It sounded okay.

I think the POD only approximates the modeled amp/cab combinations. I can always hear some digital artifacts.

The POD sounds best when it is connected to an amplification section that does not "color" the sound. I used a Crown power amp and some JBL SR speakers and it sounded loads better. I assume because the sound reinforcement equipment is more transparent.

The POD is by far more versatile.

Yup it is versatile, and does it for me.
I can no longer go out and splash a lot of money
buying this and that in search of the "Ultimate" tone.
It gives "good enough", yes with digital artifacts but fantastic for the outlay and awesome through the Marshall. I think the earlier firmware versions were better than the latest version - it has too many metal sounds for my liking.
Now a "Dumble" or "Demeter" amp model should be added to the XT imo.
Spud