Off Topic Question about so-called "Feel Players"

[tm21]

I often hear about these "Feel players" who concentrate on milking all the "emotion" out of each note. These players often have a condescending and demeaning attitude towards shredders. I often hear them rave about guys like Jeff Beck, BB King, Clapton etc.

I dont mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think all this is total BS!! I dont think Jeff Beck is a particularly interesting player, BB King strikes me as incredibly repetitive in his playing and Clapton's vibrato does little to excite or inspire me..perhaps its my age and I'm not "mature" enough to appreciate these subtle nuances. I fully understand the cultural/historical importance of these guys and their influence in shaping the development of rock n roll, I get all that, but to rate them so highly seems strange to me.

And these feel players who disparage shredders seem like they're too lazy to work on their chops, so they go the other route...play slow and easy and never challenge themselves technically. Why do people claim metal guys and shredders have no soul? Petrucci has ample soul, same with even a pure shredder like buckethead, listen to some of his slower stuff and tell me i'm lying. Even Yngwie has soul. I'm sure you've all heard Black Star. The speed is there, but its used judiciously in-between slower more melodic passages.

So am I imagining all this? What do you guys think?

WHEW, had to get that off my chest...feel much better now.

 

[robelinda2]

Age old debate, must we do it again? Play how you want, nothing else matters. Why waste time worrying about the opinion of people on the internet? Sit back, play your guitar and enjoy life.

PS The great iconic players you mention are great for a reason, just because they dont shred means nothing. Being able to shred doesnt mean instant greatness.

 

[buckethead777]

You know i used to think that too...But i guess you mature, and you really start to understand "feel".
I'm cooking dinner, can't write an essay,
BUT
Do yourself a favour, have a listen to "Where Were You" by Jeff Beck , of his
Jeff Beck's Guitar Shop CD....
About 50 tons worth of feel in every note...(and not a trace of speed)

 

[D.K.]

Just what Rob said - it's a lifelong debate over soulless viruoso vs. a musician, it's been discussed for centuries (remember Paganini?)

On a sidenote though - the best, most personal guitar players in my opinion are those, that You can instantly recognize and whose playing You can only describe as complete. Can You imagine listening to e.g. David Gilmour, Jeff Beck, SRV or Ritchie Blackmore, thinking "well, if he could only play faster?" That's ridiculous, they are great because they play the way they do. The same goes for Steve Morse, Steve Vai, Satriani, Eric Johnson, Van Halen, Luke, Petrucci, etc.
90% of the "shredders", on the other hand, are so interchangeable, that they can't be recognized at all - they all sound like a very slightly deviated version of a robot who knows all the scales and only keeps BPM in mind. Is that music? Isn't that boring? Isn't that a reason for the fact that when those guys get older, they either change that attitude, or just disappear without a trace?

Keep in mind, I ADORE the technical playing and working on it and all, and you can always learn to play buckethead - but can one "learn" to play Beck or Gimour?

 

[threeminutesboy]

Well if those players really don't impress you much, that's sad but think about your shredders heroes that are really influenced by those guys

I can not schred and I really don't care, a guitar is not a machine gun for me, and I always put emotion above the technic so I love those guys Clapton Beck BB KIng and Gilmour

 

[Jimmyb]

I often hear about these "Feel players" who concentrate on milking all the "emotion" out of each note. These players often have a condescending and demeaning attitude towards shredders. I often hear them rave about guys like Jeff Beck, BB King, Clapton etc.

I've never heard any of these players have a condescending attitude to another player. Proof please.

I dont mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think all this is total BS!!

We all have our opinions, personally I don't agree with you.

I dont think Jeff Beck is a particularly interesting player, BB King strikes me as incredibly repetitive in his playing and Clapton's vibrato does little to excite or inspire me..perhaps its my age and I'm not "mature" enough to appreciate these subtle nuances. I fully understand the cultural/historical importance of these guys and their influence in shaping the development of rock n roll, I get all that, but to rate them so highly seems strange to me.

Jeff Beck is very highly regarded by Steve Lukather.
Eric Clapton is very highly regarded by EVH.
BB King is very highly regarded by just about every one in the music business.

Well, you acknowledge their influence in shaping rock and roll, so why shouldn't they be highly rated?

And these feel players who disparage shredders seem like they're too lazy to work on their chops, so they go the other route...play slow and easy and never challenge themselves technically.

Actually, you'll probably find it's not the players who put other musicians down....

Slow = easy? Right.....

Is there a minimum tempo for songs, in order for them to be considered 'not easy'?

Why do people claim metal guys and shredders have no soul?

That would probably be the internet experts then.

Petrucci has ample soul, same with even a pure shredder like buckethead, listen to some of his slower stuff and tell me i'm lying. Even Yngwie has soul. I'm sure you've all heard Black Star. The speed is there, but its used judiciously in-between slower more melodic passages.

Sorry, not heard much of Yngwie's stuff. Doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'll start a thread to say as much...

So am I imagining all this? What do you guys think?

WHEW, had to get that off my chest...feel much better now.

Well, I'm glad it was a cathartic experience for you.

 

[ScoobySteve]

Different strokes for different folks. You don't have to like shredding and you don't have to like more emotional, phrased melodies.

But that doesn't mean you can't discredit one or the other. It's ok to have a preference for one, that's fine, we're into music for our own pleasure. But don't go around discrediting musicians or styles, that's silly.

Shredders, and what you call "feel" player have technical abilities and chops in different aspects of guitar playing that appeal to different folks. Some people admire the technical proficiency of alternate picking and fast, concise shredding. Others like more off centered, more expressive and interpretive musical performances. Doesn't mean one's better than the other. I personally love both, but have a much stronger preference for what you would call "feel music."

Just saying "feel music" can be misleading. Heart and Soul are at the very center of music playing. It's not just someone's gear, guitar, picking style and finger chops, it's the culmination of these parts that create different sounds. Emphasis on particular elements of these produce a different and distinct sound.

Establishing the perfect vibrato for a particular moment in a song, and how it accentuates the music as a whole, the strength in picking a string, which part of the finger is used to grab the string at a given point between the frets. The proper bend, release, fade or vibrato that follows, a hybrid pick, finger picking, thumb stroking, strength of harmonic, etc are just a few things that can be evoked in very different ways depending on how the musician chooses to PHRASE that particular ability.

There's a very distinct way SRV plays the instrument, its a feel and technique personal to him, that very few people can imitate. It's a sound ALL his own.

Eric Johnson, is one of the kings of what you would call "feel players." You can't look at EJ sheet music, play it note for note, and expect it to sound the same. Because it won't. It's something I'm learning now.

Learning to play with the proper "feel" as you would say, or "Phraseology" as Eric Johnson would say, is a DEFINITE skill, and it has a substantial tonal impact on the music. It is something blatantly noticeable audibly.

It doesn't have to be your cup of tea, but there is certainly no grounds for discrediting it.

Musicians you've stated such as Yngwie and JP, all have origins in classical music training. And Yngwie in particular, classical music roots. The most prevalent influence and foundation for Metal, or Prog is absolutely classical music. And in classical music, there couldn't be more important of a skill than phrasing and feel. Play a piano or a violin.

You can't watch Itzhak Perlman perform and say its all due to his chops. It's the man's feel that makes him a legend, and he's performing in an environment where "chops" or technical proficiency is taken as rigorously and seriously more-so than most niches of music.

 

[koogie2k]

Even Yngwie has soul.

hahahahahahahahhaha.......Yngwie is the worse of them all when it comes to putting down musicians. My history with Yngwie makes me bias I guess...whatever. Talented - Yes. Arrogant - Yes.

I love the shred guys as well as the old/new school "feel" players. Tell me Luke is not good and I WILL prove you wrong. Same with BB, Beck, Clapton, etc.

You just simply don't like to listen to them and that is cool. See, Dave Gilmour can say in 3 notes what Yngwie can't in 1,000. My opinion and I am sticking to it.

Again, love my shred (in doses) and love the slower cats as well. I think it is the keyboard warriors who put the shred guys down and we all know the Internet doesn't lie.

My two pennies.

 

[jamminjim]

Hey, as a side note I read that BB got Lucile back.

 

[Keithf]

feel

who cares,If it floats your boat so be it,I got a mate who swears Johnny marr is the best ever guitar player,To me he's ****,
Have a listen to Dann Huff,Best of averything,
He's i guy i'd like to see with a jp6 in his hands!!
Keith

 

[wolf5150]

Dan wouldn't lower himself to playing a JP6 mate.. he only plays good guitars.. lol

 

[balance]

To me, it's harder to keep music interesting at slower speeds because phrasing becomes much more important. Listen to Robben Ford, Danny Gatton, and Larry Carlton to get an understanding of phrasing. Brett Garsed plays runs that can be "shreddy," yet he always has a sense of the melody and uses good theory in doing so.

My only issue with shredding is when the player has nothing to say. Great, you can play 16th and 32nd notes at 180bpm, but you're running the same minor scales over and over and have no sense of melody or feel. That gets old IMO in about 4 clicks.

 

[Dizzy]

I love technical stuff, as long as there's a resemblance of a decent melody.
It's challenging & fun to play.

But only something played with true feel will make the hairs on the back of the neck tingle - and the vast majority of that sort of stuff is not played at a billion notes per second. That's where the player IS the music.

Knopfler captivated me when I was 4, and more than 30 yrs later I still rate him as my #1 "Feel" player.


EDIT : Note, with the above being said, I still reckon that there are some highly over-rated "feel" players out there - a bundle of repetitive, monotonous slow notes and a face that looks like the dude is taking a sh!t doesn't equate to feel !!!

 

[izzy]

I love technical stuff, as long as there's a resemblance of a decent melody.
It's challenging & fun to play.

But only something played with true feel will make the hairs on the back of the neck tingle - and the vast majority of that sort of stuff is not played at a billion notes per second. That's where the player IS the music.

Knopfler captivated me when I was 4, and more than 30 yrs later I still rate him as my #1 "Feel" player.

i cannae add anything to this truth

 

[PaoloGilberto]

tm21, I agree...

to much nonsense talk about "feeling" ...it's not a measurable construct

i think we should focus on creativity...and here you can see clearly who is a musician and who is just hard working

I love Guthrie Govan for example, he listens and studied all kinds of musicians but he sure sounds like Govan...and anytime anyware you know is Govan, even if he plays a BB King lick

same for players like Clapton, BB King - that you mentioned...but when you say Vai, Satriani, Petrucci, Rob Johnson, Greg Howe, Ritchie Kotzen and so on...they are also unique , but they have a plus - creativity + the "tools" (that killer technique, etc)

I often hear about these "Feel players" who concentrate on milking all the "emotion" out of each note. These players often have a condescending and demeaning attitude towards shredders. I often hear them rave about guys like Jeff Beck, BB King, Clapton etc.

I dont mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think all this is total BS!! I dont think Jeff Beck is a particularly interesting player, BB King strikes me as incredibly repetitive in his playing and Clapton's vibrato does little to excite or inspire me..perhaps its my age and I'm not "mature" enough to appreciate these subtle nuances. I fully understand the cultural/historical importance of these guys and their influence in shaping the development of rock n roll, I get all that, but to rate them so highly seems strange to me.

And these feel players who disparage shredders seem like they're too lazy to work on their chops, so they go the other route...play slow and easy and never challenge themselves technically. Why do people claim metal guys and shredders have no soul? Petrucci has ample soul, same with even a pure shredder like buckethead, listen to some of his slower stuff and tell me i'm lying. Even Yngwie has soul. I'm sure you've all heard Black Star. The speed is there, but its used judiciously in-between slower more melodic passages.

So am I imagining all this? What do you guys think?

WHEW, had to get that off my chest...feel much better now.

 

[sixtyfour]

I dont think Jeff Beck is a particularly interesting player,

Whoa. You lost me there.

The electric guitar is still in it's early adolescent years when compared to other instruments capable of extreme feats of agility (piano, violin, flute). Give it another hundred years or so.

Til then, I agree with Rob - the debate is a dead horse so listen to what you like and enjoy life without trashing other people's preferences.

 

[izzy]

I love Guthrie Govan for example, he listens and studied all kinds of musicians but he sure sounds like Govan...and anytime anyware you know is Govan, even if he plays a BB King lick

Guthrie is an awesome musician there's no doubt, but to be honest every time I hear "Guthrie being Guthrie" I hear a lot of Greg Howe.

 

[balance]

Beck @ Ronnie Scott's is a masterpiece.

 

[Hendog]

I often hear about these "Feel players" who concentrate on milking all the "emotion" out of each note. These players often have a condescending and demeaning attitude towards shredders. I often hear them rave about guys like Jeff Beck, BB King, Clapton etc.

I dont mean to offend anyone, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think all this is total BS!! I dont think Jeff Beck is a particularly interesting player, BB King strikes me as incredibly repetitive in his playing and Clapton's vibrato does little to excite or inspire me..perhaps its my age and I'm not "mature" enough to appreciate these subtle nuances. I fully understand the cultural/historical importance of these guys and their influence in shaping the development of rock n roll, I get all that, but to rate them so highly seems strange to me.

And these feel players who disparage shredders seem like they're too lazy to work on their chops, so they go the other route...play slow and easy and never challenge themselves technically. Why do people claim metal guys and shredders have no soul? Petrucci has ample soul, same with even a pure shredder like buckethead, listen to some of his slower stuff and tell me i'm lying. Even Yngwie has soul. I'm sure you've all heard Black Star. The speed is there, but its used judiciously in-between slower more melodic passages.

So am I imagining all this? What do you guys think?

WHEW, had to get that off my chest...feel much better now.

Guys like Petrucci are missing a certain complexness to their tone that guys like Jimmy Herring have.

Yeah, I just said that...

It is probably important for me to point out that Petrucci is curently my most influential guitarist so I am certainly not putting him down.

 

[whitestrat]

Guys like Petrucci are missing a certain complexness to their tone that guys like Jimmy Herring have.

Go listen to Falling Into Infinity again and tell me you still think that.