Question leading from JPs post

[Bungo]

The change in the bottom horn and slight body and contour changes all have to do with fret access and technique facilitation. - Quote from JPs post.

OK, I thought I'd put this in a new thread so as not to jumble the other one.

I'm a bit confused so I'm hoping that someone will have the answer to this (JP perhaps if you're still here Sir!)

When I play at the top end of the fretboard with my average sized hands, there is still lots of room between the back of my hand and the inside edge of the bottom horn. Even if I had quite large hands I would still imagine that at no time when playing would any part of my left hand come into contact with any part of the horn.

So...at the end of all that, is JP playing in a way that does actually lead to contact between left hand and bottom horn, or is it maybe just a psychological thing to have more space there or...something else???

Your thoughts please ladies and gents.

 

[Knox]

I always find that the problem is not the lower horn but rather the upper horn that restricts access to the higher strings form the 15th fret onwards. Its near impossible to do runs for anyone form the bottom E through A, D, G etc at the high frets because of the tradtional setup of having the upper horn set higher and in front of the lower.

The only guitar that I know that has solved this problem is the Washburn N series (Nuno Bettencourt Signature) because it has the patented Stephens Cutaway system on the upper horn and it works a treat...

It kind of doesn't matter how extended the lower horn is if the upper horn is set in the traditonal position or thereabouts.

Just my experience anyway.

 

[GHWelles]

Does it have something to do with thumb position? If you take the classical approach, the thumb is in the center of the rear of the neck, not wrapped over the top. So the lower horn clearance would be the area of concern. Since Petrucci has a technical style he may well use this approach.

And it looks like both cutaways are deeper on this design.

It is nice to see guitar design advancing instead of trying to recreate the late 50's and 60's.

 

[Knox]

Thats right....if you adopt the classical approach the recess of the upper horn shouldn't bother you that much....but I dare anyone to try and access the lower three or four strings on any strat style guitar at the higher 15th to 22nd/24th frets....its virtually impossible.....you need an SG style setup where both horns are parallel.....if I had my perfect guitar it would be an EBMM with both horns like this....

It only looks weird because you aren't used to seeing this setup.....perfect access on both sides.....I'm surprised more guitars don't offer this....maybe a future possibility for EBMM models? Or something like the stephens cutaway?

 

[GHWelles]

I've seen that twin cutaway, thin horn approach before:

Danelectro Longhorn Bass

Not really my thing.

 

[Knox]

Sorry....I'm not suggesting this hasn't been done before....I think PRS, Carvin, Hamer and a few Washburn models have used this and of course Gibson...

 

[eliot323]

I must admit, although it is a beautiful guitar and I can see the technical benefits of improved upper fret access, I prefer my current JP6's - the Danelectro Longhorn comparison is very apt...

 

[Bungo]

Does it have something to do with thumb position? If you take the classical approach, the thumb is in the center of the rear of the neck, not wrapped over the top. So the lower horn clearance would be the area of concern. Since Petrucci has a technical style he may well use this approach.

That's a good point. I forgot that some people play 'properly'. I'll have to dig out a DT DVD and see where he's putting that left hand!

 

[Bungo]

I always find that the problem is not the lower horn but rather the upper horn that restricts access to the higher strings form the 15th fret onwards. Its near impossible to do runs for anyone form the bottom E through A, D, G etc at the high frets because of the tradtional setup of having the upper horn set higher and in front of the lower.

Now that's a bit confusing? Pardon my ignorance but how does the upper horn restrict access?

I'm a bit worried now that I'm doing this guitar playing thing all wrong!!!!!

 

[stratovarious]

you have to stretch to get to higher frets,

 

[robelinda2]

your'e obviously spending too long doing widdly stuff at the 21st fret stratovarious.

 

[stratovarious]

your'e obviously spending too long doing widdly stuff at the 21st fret stratovarious.

whoops!

Smoke on the water was eassy..

 

[stratovarious]

Who's your teacher

Robelinda2




I dont grab onto it like that, not that high up anyway. I was just answering Bungo's question

 

[Lucidology]

Actually this is a really good question for a post Bungo...

Ends up being quite educational when it's broken down...!!

I would think easier access to the upper frets would certainly encourage one to play more in a guitar's upper octave range...

In truth, I rarely, if ever play that high up a fretboard ... but maybe I would with an guitar like the new JP model..!?!

 

[jeffrey]

I have problems reaching the upper frets when doing big reaches or arpeggios high up on the neck.

A bit more room there isn't a bad thing.

 

[Bungo]

you have to stretch to get to higher frets,

Hmmmm...I'm sort of with you but still not entirely seeing that there's a problem with access with most guitars.

On my JP's, my thumb hits the neck joint when my first finger is over the 19th fret and my 4th can fairly easily reach the 24th.

Whilst I don't spend a huge amount of time widdling in these upper reaches, I've never really felt that hand/joint contact at that point is a problem.

Maybe I'm just really over analyzing this? - I'll go and have a lie down I think!

 

[stratovarious]

Yup, I knew Robelinda2 was your teacher. I was just giving Rob a hard time via you. Sorry about that. I'm happy to know Rob is teaching you proper fretting techniques.

rob is the best,

aside from being a good teacher he lets me play his EBMM's!!

 

[Knox]

In repsonse to Bungos posts, you can't easily play on the lower strings in those positions because of the very fact that your thumb and palm hit the upper horn and neck heel therefore restricting access. I'd love to see/hear what you can do on the E, A and D strings from the 15th fret to the 22/24th fret with the standard upper horn recess! They restrict access. Period and you loose the ease of utilising the second octaves on at the very least the lower three strings. As a result very few guitar players can and will use these strings/notes.

Its ok on the B and E strings but the lower ones proves very difficult and for this reason thats why guitar companies have adopted the extended cutaway on the upper horn...makes perfect sense to most!

You must be ambidexturous to utilise the second octave on the E and A strings with your thumb on the top of the neck and your palm resting on the neck plate because it can't go anywhere else! I certainly can't...

 

[robelinda2]

Yup, I knew Robelinda2 was your teacher. I was just giving Rob a hard time via you. Sorry about that. I'm happy to know Rob is teaching you proper fretting techniques.

i try. would be easier if i had at least ONE student with a EBMM axe! i'm slowly sucking them in week by week when i let them play my balls, though its really only a lucky few who i give that honor to. gotta let them see what life is like playing the best guitars in the world!!!!!!!

 

[Bungo]

In repsonse to Bungos posts, you can't easily play on the lower strings in those positions because of the very fact that your thumb and palm hit the upper horn and neck heel therefore restricting access. I'd love to see/hear what you can do on the E, A and D strings from the 15th fret to the 22/24th fret with the standard upper horn recess! They restrict access. Period and you loose the ease of utilising the second octaves on at the very least the lower three strings. As a result very few guitar players can and will use these strings/notes.

Its ok on the B and E strings but the lower ones proves very difficult and for this reason thats why guitar companies have adopted the extended cutaway on the upper horn...makes perfect sense to most!

You must be ambidexturous to utilise the second octave on the E and A strings with your thumb on the top of the neck and your palm resting on the neck plate because it can't go anywhere else! I certainly can't...

OK I think we're heading off in two slightly different directions here. Perhaps I didn't read your previous post carefully enough before replying.

I understand what you're saying about access to the lower strings on the high frets, but my original question was more concerned with why increasing the size of the area underneath the neck (i.e between the high E side of the neck and the inside of the bottom or lower horn) should improve the playability of a guitar.

I think Wonderdog may have come close to answering it with the comment regarding a more classical hand position with the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck, possibly moving the whole hand more towards the lower horn?

Will have a look at a DT DVD and see if that is what he's doing.