Shred?

[candid_x]

I hope this is an appropriate place to air this opinion. It isn’t directed to anyone here, since I don’t know anyone here well.

I’m an older player, not especially great in any way, but I do have a good sense of melody and context. I become easily bored, listening to extensive bars of 64th notes, played at blistering speeds. But I also know I’m not the only one who “doesn’t get it”.

Anyone who has traveled around very much has experienced walking into any guitar oriented music store in America and heard some kid shredding away with no sense of melodic context in his or her playing. I watch dozens of youtube.com videos of these types of players, and, as impressed as I am with their mechanical abilities, I’m nearly always left devoid of musical satisfaction.

I have been a member of another unrelated forum for several years. It is a specialized topic forum, one which attracts scholars in the area of ancient Chinese history and etymology. It’s common there to ‘hear’ endless strings of academic ‘facts’, and these experts can rattle off more facts in a minute than I have time to even learn about. But, what do all these facts mean within the context of living? Where is the melody and rhythm in their music? And is it really music at all?

Then I listen to someone like Steve Morse, a cat who can shred with the best. But I never get bored listening to Steve’s playing, even when he’s making smoldering toothpicks of his fret board. There’s others like him - whom you no doubt know more about than I do - who understand patient musical phrasing and context, and yet can shred with the best of ‘em. These, imo, are the masters of shred. Even more, they are the masters of music.

Would like to hear other opinions on this.

If this topic or post is deemed inappropriate by the powers that be, that’s cool. You pay the bills here. Just delete it. But I think it needs to be said, for the sake of these talented young musicians, and even for us oldies.

Bruce

 

[koogie2k]

Candid...I love your topics! Most interesting read. So, here is what I will add through my experiences.

When I got to the point of being able to put together a mode, I thought I had to play it lightning fast....all the time. I actually built up decent speed. It was almost like, look how much faster I am today....lol....
Go into a music store, I see the same thing...people going a gazillion miles a hour.

So, what happened to me? I got a guitar instructor who can play literally everything on the planet and he told me I had to slow down because I was passing all the "good" notes.....

I was then assigned nothing but Van Halen tunes. I, of all people, do not like VH, but, my instructor said it will slow you down and give you some feel. OK. Well, that worked for me.

Then we got into some bluesy type players....and I was slowed down to a crawl...but my God, the feeling! I would literally bend a note and hold it and let her breath and sing.....my God was that great!

Shred is a good thing, but only if done tastefully. Morse, Petrucci come to mind....hwoever, there are mindless players out there who put me to sleep with the same run over and over again....I won't mention any names as it is my opinion and mine alone.

Lately, I have been seriously into Luke's playing. The feeling.....Luke has it. IF I could get 10% of Luke's feeling in my playing, I have accomplished my goal.

 

[fsmith]

Two words... David Gilmour. It's been said before, but it's true, he can say more with 3 notes than most guys can in 3 bars.

I've listened in appreciation of what those guys that can shred can do, but I always find myself coming back to the guys that play with feeling. And I find that I try and emulate those guys more when I'm just noodling around.

I love to hear emotion in someones playing. Luke always comes to mind.

fred

 

[candid_x]

Thanks, Koogie.

Yes, feeling. And then, what does that feeling say? Does the phrase or entire piece make a statement, or leave an emotional impression? Is there room in the phrase or song which allows a listener to fill it in with their own feelings?

 

[SteveB]

Bruce,

I have also been left scratching my head when hearing flurries of notes with no soul behind them. There are lots of players who suffer from this malady (I'm not one of them, I haven't got the technique).

Fortunately, there are some great players who can shred and retain phrasing and melody. Ones that immediately come to mind are John Petrucci, Vinnie Moore, Vai, Satriani, etc.

The not-so-obvious ones: Larry Carlton.. this man can throw down like nobody's business, yet he almost never does. Al DiMeola never strays from being musical, and he can run the fretboard with the best of 'em. Strunz & Farah play wickedly fast flamenco with nary a dull moment.

 

[candid_x]

Steve,

“Some” of the shredding I hear, if I can slow it down enough in my head, are incredibly tasty! They just go by so fast that I can’t bite into it. Then the solo goes into practice-land somewhere, and it loses me entirely. But damn, there’s some fine stuff being passed by.

 

[robelinda2]

100% agree Candid, best to stay off you tube sometimes!! I know where your'e coming from, i get real sick of hearing mindless shredders, its impressive for a few moments, but what lasts in your mind is the MUSIC. Morse is the best example. There can be no doubt that he is possibly the greatest technical player ever, yet he is never called a shredder, Why? Because he shreds when he NEEDS to, and never sacrifices the MUSIC. hey even Luke can shred, but man does he do it with taste!!!

 

[dwf1004]

Playing fast makes you a bad ass.

Playing with feel makes you an ARTIST.

Playing with the ability to tastefully balance the two makes you a GOD.

 

[pauldogx]

I find I go through phases of where I wanna hear total shredding and then there are times when it annoys me. Guys who play very technically who NEVER bore me are Eric Johnson on the rock side(every note he plays just has that beautiful tone---like Joshua Bell on the violin). Other guys who blow me away ALL the time are the Telecaster guys (especially Danny Gatton) who also play lots of notes---but also lots of bends,slides note clusters and chords just as fast. There are lots of these fellas---Albert Lee,Will Ray, John Jorgenson,Jerry Donahue---and Jerry Douglas on the Dobro. If ya get bored with the rock shredders-----check these guys out---its a humbling experience.

 

[NorM]

This topic has such potiential but not necessarily as a shred bashing thread.

One or more of three "i's" happens when I hear a good guitar player.
Impress - as in a manual dexterity demonstration. Kinka like watching someone type really fast. Or hearing something that moves me.
Intimidate - Hearing / seeing someone play something that I can't and I am ashamed that I can't
Inspired - Makes me want to go home and practice

The fun thing I figured out is "It's my choice" on which one I want to feel.

Generally, I like to listen to the guitar players that inspire me. I like to dream that I can do that too. It's free and you can't take that away from me. Then when I learn it, it is a dream come true.

What I would hope for:
The difference between bashing and constructive critism is a fine line and (again) a choice made by the listener (intentionally vauge).
When I put my vids up I was really hoping for some (less than positive) constructive critism. Producers cost money and I am cheap that way. Still, this forum is my peer group. This is exactly the group I want to hear from to critique my playing. Putting vids up is a risk because there might be people that don't like it and have the balls (no pun intended) to say so.
I would like the freedom for this board to be able to do that. Even if it is a case by case basis. If you put a vid up and you don't want any less than positive feedback just say so.
"Here is my video and don't say anything I or someone else might consider less than praise" That's OK to do that. We all need to be told we are winners for trying.

A sceniaro-
If you thought my playing stunk. I'm glad you took the time to listen to it. If you have some ideas on parts that need to be improved then sound off. I need the feedback to be a better player. If there is something that might help me and you don't tell me then no thanks to you. If you didn't like it and and you don't tell me then you are scared to express yourself or you live in a place that suffers from censorship. I hope you are not that way when you play music.

 

[candid_x]

NorM, agree completely on bashing.

I like listening to member’s clips, no matter what their skill or experience level or style. It takes guts to do that for other players, who are perhaps the hardest critics, but also hopefully the biggest encouragers.

 

[NorM]

NorM, agree completely on bashing.

I like listening to member’s clips, no matter what their skill or experience level or style. It takes guts to do that for other players, who are perhaps the hardest critics, but also hopefully the biggest encouragers.

Cool! Now let's talk about gut levels for:
Critiquing
Accepting criticism
That is tough as well.

Also, are there guidelines for those? What is and is not acceptable? I really hope you can share your thoughts and help define the neccessary etiquette. This is super cool!!

 

[koogie2k]

NorM...I have always found your playing to be inspiring to me.....makes me practice because I am in the "Itimidate" as well as "Inspired" class when you play...makes me pick up the guitar and put in extra time.....same with Tristan and countless others here.

 

[NorM]

NorM...I have always found your playing to be inspiring to me.....makes me practice because I am in the "Itimidate" as well as "Inspired" class when you play...makes me pick up the guitar and put in extra time.....same with Tristan and countless others here.

Highest praise possible. Thank You. I hope you are having more fun than anybody else!

 

[dwf1004]

OK, so NorM wants someone to be picky about him...it is SO on.

---

NorM, I've always told you that you need to learn to count to 4.

Then you need to tap your foot as you count to 4.

Then you need to tap your foot, count to 4, and synchronize your playing to that.

Then you need to tap your foot, count to 4, and synchronize your playing to that without looking like a dork because you're stomping your foot to the count of 4. You're tapping, not stamping an ant hill.

Use a metronome, use a dripping water faucet, whatever...but get that rhythm down. Your playing is awesome, and you run circles around me on the talent meter, but if you slip off the beat, then it's a bit of a mish mash until you get back in sync. I have recorded evidence of this. Git-r-done, dude.

Only then can you eat.

 

[NorM]

Use a metronome, use a dripping water faucet, whatever...but get that rhythm down. Your playing is awesome, and you run circles around me on the talent meter, but if you slip off the beat, then it's a bit of a mish mash until you get back in sync. I have recorded evidence of this.
Only then can you eat.

Crap you played the food card-
This is perfect and exactly what I was talking about.
Tonight- Modes and Metronones. Once you learn Modes everything else just falls into place. If I can play on time then I can play faster Really I do loose time then its just awkard until I get back on time. OK off I go, work work work. (and by that I mean play play play)

 

[mhorse]

A quote from a movie comes to mind:
In the remake of the Italian Job that came out a few years back, John tells Charlie: "Some steal to enrich their lives, some still to define their lives"

Same here. Some shred to enrich their playing. They impress, intimidate and inspire me at the same time. Some shred to define their playing. Only the very best of them impress, the rest are just boring.

The boundaries are subjective though. I find some famous and very well regarded players out there lack that "feel", or I can't feel/hear it. even when they don't shred all the time.

 

[SteveB]

I think that if you put yourself out there, you gotta take the bad with the good. That being said, I think that we can be critical of each other without ever having to be insulting or condescending. As mentioned, there are players here of every skill level, and we can all learn from each other.

Since we're all free to accept, ignore, or reject each other's opinion, there's no real need for further ground rules beyond simple respect, right?

Personally, I like both kinds of feedback. It's nice to hear what you're doing right, and it's helpful to hear what you might do better.

I've been blown away by the work of some forumites, and I've heard some that reminded me of my earlier days of playing. What matters most is that someone's having a good time making their own music.

 

[candid_x]

Cool! Now let's talk about gut levels for:
Critiquing
Accepting criticism
That is tough as well.

Also, are there guidelines for those? What is and is not acceptable? I really hope you can share your thoughts and help define the neccessary etiquette. This is super cool!!

LOL, I’m probably not the best one to ask concerning etiquette as I tend to be too blunt and politically incorrect. However, gut level is something else.

First, I’ve yet to see where critiquing peers on a regular basis has much of a positive effect or outcome. Well intended criticism can become drill if it’s focused on too much.

Second, a critique should only be offered where a player asks for one. This is why I deleted my post to Tristan on a different thread: he never asked me for my opinion. I was out of line in offering one.

If someone asks for input on their playing or recording, then they should get what they ask for. No flattery or bashing, just honest input.

All just my opinion.

 

[Colin]

OK, so Eric Johnson and Larry Carlton have both been mentioned (thank you to those who mentioned them) They aren't necessarily classed as shred players but man they are mature. Michael Lee Firkins comes to mind as a so called shred player but is also very tasty. Robben Ford is a great player but not considered a shredder. Is it a certain style of music that puts you in the shred category? Does playing a slower style of music take you out of the shred genre? What does the word shred mean to you? To me it means flashy, accurate, sometimes clinical, always great to watch but often hard to listen to more than once or twice.