StingRay 5 Setup Issues

[OmegaZero]

I've always liked the sound of StingRay basses; in years past I've been in bands with guys who had them and they always had an awesome fat & aggressive tone. A few weeks ago I finally decided I needed to own one, so I went out and bought a shiny new Pacific Blue Burst StingRay 5 HH. It's a beautiful instrument, feels great to play, and I'm really happy with the overall tone. Unfortunately I'm getting a bit too much fret buzz (both fretted and open notes); so much so that it's coming through on my tracks when recording. I had a go at following the factory setup guide from the MM FAQ page, but that didn't seem to help much since it was pretty much there already. Next I tried bringing it to a professional - I've now had it to three different reputable shops in town. None of them found any issues with the neck, fret dressing, relief, nut, etc, but yet no one has been able to give it a good setup. One guy thought I should put non-permanent Loctite on the saddle screws, as he thinks they are vibrating loose. Another guy said it wasn't possible to set up this bass because "those big fat double 'buckers are just too much pull on the strings". So far, the only way I've found to mitigate the buzz is to cut the treble way down. Doing this removes a lot of the aggressiveness that I like about the tone though...

I'm not sure how much help can be offered via a forum post, but I thought I would give it a try. It's a real bummer to have spent $2k on a new axe (plus another $400 on luthier visits) and still not have a fully usable instrument. I find it hard to believe that everyone who has a StingRay just lives with this issue - I figure I must be missing something. I really don't want to part with it, but if I can't figure this out I won't really have a choice.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions...

 

[TNT]

Maybe I missed something, but did you talk to the dealer yet?? You need to start there if you feel that there is a valid concern, or perhaps give customer service a call.

 

[bassmonkeee]

Based on the information you've provided to date (look out! speculation ahead!), there is nothing wrong with the bass.

That leaves the setup. How low are you trying to get your action? Based on the "loctite on the saddle screws" and "magnets!" feedback, I'm guessing pretty low. Big humbucker magnets will have a signifigant pull on the strings if they are super low. And, if you have saddle screws extremely low, they will wiggle lose from the vibrations.

And, what did these three luthiers do for $400 if they couldn't find anything wrong with the bass?


Unfortunately, there isn't anything that anyone on a forum can tell you that hasn't already been said or tried by the three luthiers who had the actual instrument in their hands. And, customer service isn't going to be able to use a magic wand and special beans to glean the problem and diagnose/treat over the phone or email, either. So, is this something that you are willing to pay to ship to SLO to have checked out to probably tell you the same thing the three local luthiers have already told you?

 

[Soulkeeper]

Some say fret buzz is a part of the Stingray sound. Some say it's all in the technique. I have had a few SR5s, and I always set them up to my own preferences myself.

To me, it is a compromise between fret buzz and low action. I have no problem getting rid of all the fret buzz, but that makes the action too high for my tastes, and to be honest I like a little bit of buzz around the edges of my notes. I find I can control this buzz to a certain degree with both my left- and right-hand technique, and thus control a cool aspect of the sound while I'm playing. Makes for added versatility.

One possible explanation is that your previous basses have "suppressed" the fret clank, so that you've never really developed a technique to suppress it yourself. Stingrays can be unforgiving instruments. Even if you already know how to play the bass, you may still have to learn how to play the Stingray.

Hope I'm making sense here. For the 20 years that I've been playing the bass, I've played SR5s almost exclusively, so where I'm coming from is obviously the exact opposite of where you're coming from. When I play other basses, most of them sound dull to me, in comparison to the SR5. Fret noise, and lack thereof, might be part of the reason for that.

Some starting tips: Moving your right hand toward the bridge reduces fret noise, because you're making more overtones and less of the root frequency, so the string doesn't thrash around so much. To compensate for the sharper sound, you might want to pull down the treble a bit on the EQ, which reduces fret noise even more. If you want to play close to the neck, pluck the strings so that they vibrate parallel to the fretboard, not perpendicular (the opposite of how you make a fretless go "mwah") A good left hand technique where you use the tips, not the pads, of your fingers, and where you press down the string directly behind the fret (not in the middle between frets) also suppresses buzz. The harder you press, the less buzz you'll get, because you'll force the string to make an arch over the nearest frets. If overdone it'll also make you go a little bit sharp. These techniques make it possible to drastically change the sound even mid-tone, which makes for tremendous versatility and eloquence.

So, to conclude: You may need to learn to not only accept, but love, and last but not least, use, the fret noise for all that it's worth, IMHO.

 

[OmegaZero]

Thanks for the comments! So, to clarify: I'm not looking for particularly low action - thus far I've been trying to work with the stock string heights from the FAQ page. Also, the buzz I'm talking about isn't part of the normal mechanical noise of the bass. For example, when I play an open E I can hear it buzzing against the first fret for about 3 seconds into the note. This happens in many different places up the neck and on all of the strings (but not in the same places for all of the strings). I'm certain my technique needs work, and I know every bass is different and needs adjustment in playing. Still though, this seems to be pretty obviously a setup thing. And I know I got taken a bit paying for people to not fix the issue. Still pretty pissed about that. I didn't think there was going to be a "magic wand" answer, but it's still nice to talk it over with people who know the instrument (and aren't charging me money for their advice ). Some thoughts...

I know pickups can affect the strings, and I did try lowering them to see if it made a difference. I backed them both off until they were pretty much flush with the body, but still the same buzz (and it sounded weaker than my cheap Ibanez). That pretty much rules that out, no?

The last shop I took it to I actually visited twice. The second time they set it up while I was standing there, and it did seem to be a bit better when I tried it. By the time I got home though it was right back to being buzzy. I don't know that I want to go the Loctite route, as it doesn't seem like the saddles are moving (I measured). Is it possible the neck is "slipping"? I'm not subjecting the bass to any radical humidity or temperature changes, and it lives in the provided MM case when not being played...

I've always used GHS Boomers mediums (45, 65, 85, 105, 130) on my basses. I figured I would give the EB mediums (45, 65, 80, 100, 130) a try since they came on the bass. I don't think the brand should be an issue in terms of buzz (both nickel rounds), but I'm wondering if I should try a heavier gauge. EB makes the Power Slinky set (50, 70, 85, 105, 135) but the little sound spectrum thing on the website makes me think they might be too bright. GHS doesn’t seem to make any standard sets that are heavier. Any recommendations if I go this route?

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Are you recording direct, or through a miked amplifier? The direct tone on any bass will be quite different from the amplified tone. How does the bass sound when you play through an amplifier?

 

[OmegaZero]

I've tried micing amps in the past, but I've never really been happy with the results. Generally I end up using a feed from my old SansAmp Bass Driver DI through an A-Designs Reddi tube pre. Aside from the fret buzz, this actually works out better with the SR since it has such a great onboard EQ...

 

[Golem]

......... I'm not looking for particularly low action - thus far I've
been trying to work with the stock string heights from the FAQ
page. Also, the buzz I'm talking about isn't part of the normal
mechanical noise of the bass. For example, when I play an
open E I can hear it buzzing against the first fret for about
3 seconds into the note. This happens in many different places
up the neck and on all of the strings (but not in the same
places for all of the strings). ...........

This part, the above quoted section, really bugs me. Instead
having the luthiers check it out, you need to have some real
SR5-player hands-on checkouts. IOW, if those who play SR5s
have no trouble with their own SR5, but DO have trouble with
yours, then you gotta do something about the ax, even if you
gotta ship it cross country [my own SR5, in its case, was $75
to ship from NY to CA].

OTOH, if such players have no problem with your ax, at least
you won't waste money shipping it. And you know what else
that latter result means, so you gotta learn from them, have
them check you out and see why you make noises.

Frankly, if the open strings buzz and the ax is well set up it's
gotta be either your attack, or the bass. No other element of
your technique is involved with an open string, just attack. If
it's the bass, that would includes strings, so try other strings
before spending to ship it to SLO. Strings can be defective or
possibly damaged.

I'm no recording engineer, but perznally, I don't think direct
recording from a MM is cool idea. Just cuz it somehow works
for some other basses does not mean you should expect it to
be the best approach for all basses. A MM is an old design so
perhaps you oughta adopt the recording technique that was
prevalent in that era [and is still in use today].

 

[Soulkeeper]

This part, the above quoted section, really bugs me.

Same here. Plus this, that I just saw in another thread:

That front PUP is usually right where I want a thumb rest...

With my SR5 setup(s), when I play over where the front pup would be, I have to be very careful to keep the strings from buzzing like crazy. I normally only have my hand in this position when slapping, and then the fret noise is supposed to be prominent.

So move your hand to (or at least towards) the bridge pup. Adjust EQ to compensate for added brightness. Notice how much less fret noise you're getting. Adjust to taste.

If you hate it, get used to it. If you can't get used to it, the SR5 might not be the bass for you. (Hmmm. Was that too harsh? My judgement is impaired by earliness and a lack of coffee.)

 

[Movielife]

I used to have wolf notes on my Ray 5 HS. I think it was the D string.

It was there for over a year...then I changed the strings. It went away! It was purely just down to the string and how it was wound/setup on the bass.

Try different strings. It could be technique though...if you are digging in near the neck it will clack and buzz

 

[73jbass]

The string buzz the OP described sounds a lot like not enough break angle over the nut. Got enough wraps around the machine head?

 

[Golem]

The string buzz the OP described sounds a lot like not
enough break angle over the nut. Got enough wraps
around the machine head?

OP particularly mentions the open E, and this NOT the
peg nearest to the nut, since it's a 5-string. On a 5 or
a 4, the lowest string's peg is too close to the nut on
all "Leo-derived" headstocks, and so the break angle
is hugely affected by the number of wraps on that one
string. But the E-string on an SR5 is already far enuf
from the nut that the break angle is not significantly
changed by adding a few extra turns onto the wrap.

Also, the OP indicates that fretted notes can exhibit
the same symptom, on various strings.

BTW, @ OmegaZero: Tune up to C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab and
see whether the added tension cures the ailment. If
this works, then you need more string tension if you
wish to use your current attack on that bass. If so,
you either play in that tuning, or you get some really
hefty strings.

 

[MrMusashi]

vibrations in a bass can come from a completely different area than where you hear it..

if it only buzzes on open strings id check the nut. maybe its cut a little bit too wide and the string rattles in there.
maybe its cut too low and the string hits the first / second fret. either way a tiny drop of superglue in the slot might fix that (making the slot tighter/higher)

if it buzzes on many different notes id check that the leafs on the tuners are not loose. if they can move they will vibrate when you play.
i have had to use a tape coated plier to gently squeeze the metal holding the leaf closer together. it can happen if you bump into something with the tuners and they get bent

also a string change is a good idea. i guess we all have had defective strings once that buzzes, wont stay in tune or intonate really badly.

ps: did you check the pickup height? if they are too close to the string they might pull it downwards to the frets thus causing buzz (and intonation problems)

but all this is internet diagnosis. do give customer service a call. they know the basses, they have probably seen most of the culprits out there and can start with the most common ones and then work down towards the really really rare ones

details in my signature..

hth!

MrM

 

[OmegaZero]

Thank you all for your help & suggestions. I'm happy to say that after several days of trial and [mostly] error, I think I've got things worked out. Here's the summary:

The first thing I did was change strings to the Power Slinky set. I was hoping the heavier gauge would help, but it didn't seem to so I changed back to a new set of Regular Slinkys. Next I started increasing the relief in the neck. I went 1/4 turn at time and let the bass sit for about 45 minutes in between adjustments; played a bit and then repeated. Once I got to about 9/64 on the low B the buzzing was only in certain spots as opposed to pretty much everywhere. I reset my intonation and made a few subtle adjustments at the bridge (mostly just raised the D string a bit) which cleaned up a lot of the remaining issues. I was still having trouble with the E though, so I took it to the friendliest of the shops I'd previously visited. After looking at it for a while and talking things over we decided to fill in the nut a little under that string, which did the trick there. The only thing left to do was to readjust the pickup heights for the new action, which I did by taking the measurements from the FAQ page and adjusting for the extra 1/32 of height. Voila - I have a playable bass now. I'm still a little disappointed that I had to do this all myself, as this is what I expected I was paying for in my first round of shop visits.

Once I started really playing the SR I found I was digging in a bit too much, which a few people have mentioned. I ended up switching to back to the Power Slinkys (then readjusting everything again for the new tension) and moving my right hand position back a bit to tame the clanking. Not surprisingly, I also ended up changing my recording chain a bit for this new bass. I'm using the SansAmp in parallel with an SVT model in my Axe-FX now and I'm pretty happy with the results.

It was an interesting journey. I suppose for me the moral of the story is not to expect to get out of setup and break-in work just because you're buying a high-end, expensive instrument. I ended up spending much more time & money getting the SR in shape than I have with the cheap Ibanez basses I've owned. The end result is SO much better though...

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I'm still a little disappointed that I had to do this all myself, as this is what I expected I was paying for in my first round of shop visits.

Now that you know the setup and adjustment procedure, you will simply do it yourself periodically and you won't need to pay a shop to attempt to get it right. Your instrument setup is as personal as your playing style, and you're the one who knows exactly how it should feel and sound.

I suppose for me the moral of the story is not to expect to get out of setup and break-in work just because you're buying a high-end, expensive instrument.

Realize that once a bass leaves the factory it undergoes a lot of changes: humidity, temperature, people playing it in the store, perhaps a string change. The subtleties of the factory setup are often altered by all of these factors.

The good thing about a quality instrument from MusicMan (and other premium manufacturers) is that all of the instruments are of high quality; there's excellent consistency from one instrument to the next. This isn't the case with mass-produced low-priced instruments: if you find one that's really good, you buy it, because the next few you find aren't as good.

So enjoy this high-quality professional instrument---now adjusted to fit your style---and play the hell out of it!

 

[Movielife]

I've found ALL my Musicman basses have arrived perfectly setup, bar the bad string on one but that could have been anything...

All of mine were fresh from the dealer, so they were not hung in a shop/store. It's at the shop were I assume things may start to change, setup wise.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Yes, and I'm sure there are some shops with an in-house guy who sets the basses up consistently, to compensate for the other brands. Unfortunately, they end up set up the way he likes them.