Tone! Pedals/Amps and so on

[waynesworld91]

I'd like to have a general discussion amongst guitarists about tone. Well I got my JP7 and now it's just a matter of getting the right amp and such. I know that I'm going to find a good amp that will probably be able to do most of the overdrive/distortion sound by itself and have a little tweaking through pedals BUT here are my questions that I hope everyone will help me with to give me a better understanding and make sure I get the right gear.

1) Combo amp vs. a stack - advantages and disadvantages?
2) Pedals vs. Rack units - price, tone/things I can only get out of one but not the other maybe? and which do you think is better?
3) Mandatory pedals - what should I get that is usually mandatory in everyone's setup that will really help improve my tone? So far I've heard about compression/suppressor pedals and need to look further into that.
4) Effects send and return/loop - is this a better way of connecting pedals and such instead of going through the amp's input? Also is it better to go through certain pedals before others and why? What are effects or advantages I might get from putting a pedal infront before connecting it to another one?

I will have more questions but hopefully anyone over here can help me with this! Thanks.

 

[NewLukeGuy]

I suggest you give the forumites a little bit more to go on regarding your style, influences and what type of stuff you are going after. The options are so wide open that it's very hard to send you in a direction unless you give us a hint on what musical influences you have and the stuff you like to play.

 

[balance]

First, decide on the amp you want. Effects are secondary to your amp and should compliment that amp and your playing.

As for a Head/Cab versus a Combo, here are my thoughts of why I prefer a Head/Cab, though I'm not opposed to a good Combo.

1. Flexibility - A separate cab gives you options for different speaker types and formats, 4x10, 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, etc...

2. Portability - Sometimes breaking the two up makes transport easier.

3. Tube Rattle - Many amps have dampeners to avoid this, but for some reason, EL-84 amps seem to be more susceptible to tube rattle.

 

[lenny]

Tube amps ...heads and cabs or Combos ...I like em both for different reasons....but im a pedal junkie ....I play in a cover band and lots ofdifferent tones is important to me....lots of dirt choices ...and its fun...nothing like a TB stompbox hitting some tubes...

 

[fatoni]

for tone guitar>cord>amp. only add what you must have. stacks are more flexible because you can carry/change amp and cab independently. pedal vs rack is pretty subjective but the quality of effect isnt related to what its housed in. rack stuff will probably require a midi controller

 

[ProtoChicken]

Tube amps ...heads and cabs or Combos ...I like em both for different reasons....but im a pedal junkie ....I play in a cover band and lots ofdifferent tones is important to me....lots of dirt choices ...and its fun...nothing like a TB stompbox hitting some tubes...

Jeez Lenny, all those pedals and not a single Dirty Boy? Actually I had never heard one in person before this weekend. The studio I was at had a few different ones and they all sounded great.

 

[lenny]

Tried some Dirty Boy stuff...Just not for me...

 

[waynesworld91]

Yeah you're totally right sorry about that. I'm in a Prog band so think Dream Theater, Circus Maximus, Frost*...it can be really nice and light stuff but at times it does get pretty heavy as well. Right now I'm aiming towards a Boogie Mark IV or V [I don't think that they even make Mark IVs anymore] or possibly an ENGL Invader...which ever's cheaper.

Ok so I have a few more questions and hopefully all of my questions are answered. I was looking around the forum and found with the whole Piezo deal you can actually use a "splitter box" and split the magnetic or something like that. Can anybody explain exactly what this does? I'm kinda confused on it. Also been looking at ways to connect the Piezo and saw things like connecting both outputs, using certain cables and such so if anyone has in any input on that shoot away!

I suggest you give the forumites a little bit more to go on regarding your style, influences and what type of stuff you are going after. The options are so wide open that it's very hard to send you in a direction unless you give us a hint on what musical influences you have and the stuff you like to play.

 

[jam3v]

1) Combo amp vs. a stack - advantages and disadvantages?

Really, you can go either way. Combos are supposed to be easier to transport, but in my opinion sometimes it's harder to carry high end combos than carrying a head / cab separately. Those combos can get HEAVY.

You can usually plug good combos into cabs anyway, if you want to get a bigger / different sound.

Sometimes the combo version of an amp doesn't have the same exact specs as its "head" counterpart, so make sure you research that.

2) Pedals vs. Rack units - price, tone/things I can only get out of one but not the other maybe? and which do you think is better?

Tough question, and I think it depends more on what you're doing. I recently sold all my pedals (had about 8) and replaced them with a G-Force rack unit.

Pedals are really easy to setup and get a good sound out of. The G-Force, for example, takes a lot more time to get the sound you're looking for. Mostly because the interface is kind of clunky. Turning knobs on a physical device is much easier.

Some pedals are also true-bypass / analogue, which some people really care about. Most are buffered and digital, which a lot of people will argue drastically effects your tone.

I can say that my tone is better now that I plug straight into the amp with better cables and only have one device in the loop (the G-Force). There's NO noise or feedback.

3) Mandatory pedals - what should I get that is usually mandatory in everyone's setup that will really help improve my tone? So far I've heard about compression/suppressor pedals and need to look further into that.

If you're not huge on effects and like a straight up sound, then all you really need is a reverb, and MAYBE a delay. A lot of amps come with a reverb box, but the ones I've heard aren't great.

For me, I can't stand a clean channel (when not using piezo) without a chorus effect on it.

I wouldn't want to use compression on my gain channels, but I've heard a lot of people use them on the clean channel.

4) Effects send and return/loop - is this a better way of connecting pedals and such instead of going through the amp's input? Also is it better to go through certain pedals before others and why? What are effects or advantages I might get from putting a pedal infront before connecting it to another one?

Your effects should always go through the loop. Stuff like overdrives can also go in the loop, but I think are better in front of the amp. You'd want to put the wah in front as well.

More importantly, there is a specific order in which you want to connect those pedals in the loop. For example, time based effects (reverb, delay, chorus) should always be at the end of the chain.

 

[musikarero]

Tube amps ...heads and cabs or Combos ...I like em both for different reasons....but im a pedal junkie ....I play in a cover band and lots ofdifferent tones is important to me....lots of dirt choices ...and its fun...nothing like a TB stompbox hitting some tubes...

Lenny I just bought a new Mojo Hand Juju Boost - Limited Edition and it looks like you have one too on your board. How do you like yours and what can I expect......thanks!

 

[DaPatrooch]

You should take your JP7 to a music store and try out a crapload of amps. But if you have a JP7, I'd assume you play metal or rock at least, so go for high-gain amps.

I have both a small rack setup and a pedalboard with a few pedals. I just use whatever depending on what I feel like using haha. I love both for different reasons. With pedals, you have instant tweakability, no real programming. Also easy to set up. My "rack" consists of a TC Electronic G Major and a Behringer MIDI Controller. It is also very easy to set up because it's just one unit, but a lot of rack rigs are pretty complex. It takes time to get used to programming presets, but it's well worth it. The best thing about racks though is that you don't have to step on 39430 pedals to get one sound, you just program all the effects you need to one preset and simply step on that button. Plus you're not restricted to, for example, one chorus sound, one delay sound, etc. You can have as many as you want (well, as many as the unit holds anyway). So there are pros and cons to both.

The only essential thing for me is delay. It really blends leads together, and just a touch blends rhythms together really well, although it is not incumbent for them. But for leads it's definitely a must.

Reverb and Delay are time-based, so they should go in the loop. Distortion, wah, and I guess pitch shifting usually go in front of the amp, but it's really up to you and your sound preference. I like Chorus in the loop too, but everything else I prefer in front of the amp. I would suggest trying each effect both in the loop and in front to see what you like.

 

[NewLukeGuy]

Tube amps ...heads and cabs or Combos ...I like em both for different reasons....but im a pedal junkie ....I play in a cover band and lots ofdifferent tones is important to me....lots of dirt choices ...and its fun...nothing like a TB stompbox hitting some tubes...

Lenny,
If it's not too much trouble can you run through this lineup of pedals please? I'd really like to get a better understanding of what you have working there. The only thing I recognize is the Fulltone 70s pedal.

 

[metalmarty]

Yeah you're totally right sorry about that. I'm in a Prog band so think Dream Theater, Circus Maximus, Frost*...it can be really nice and light stuff but at times it does get pretty heavy as well. Right now I'm aiming towards a Boogie Mark IV or V [I don't think that they even make Mark IVs anymore] or possibly an ENGL Invader...which ever's cheaper.

Don't forget to check out the Engl Steve Morse sig, that's one amazing amp. The Special Edition is fantastic too.

Here's a great clip on what the Morse can do (EBMM Morse content!):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJZ4RqP3MuY"]YouTube- Engl E-656 Steve Morse Signature Top[/ame]

 

[D.K.]

Played my BFR JP7 with my Egnater TOL 100 (Rocktron version) through a Marshall 4x12 cab (Vintage 30) for the first time yesterday. WOW. HUGE. Now that's how EBMMs really sound like with a great amp.

Really, all You need to add to that is delay, tremolo and a wah, and off You go.

And if You check out ENGL, try the Savage 120. I've yet to find an amp with that character and tone.

 

[metalmarty]

Savage 120 is fantastic indeed. I had the Savage SE wich was a bit smoother, the Savage 120 is rougher, more in your face. Excellent amp.

 

[D.K.]

To me, the finesse of the excellent Savage SE was exactly what took a bit away from the original character of the Savage 120. Just think Ritchie Blackmore's tone on the 1995 Rainbow album or the live bootlegs from that tour - that's SAVAGE.

BTW, the Egnater TOL 100 is very good and very personal, too (ask Vai), they just don't do them anymore.

 

[jam3v]

I owned a Savage 120 for a few months. It's definitely a great sounding, versatile amp. The problem, for me, with that amp, is that no matter how you EQ'd it, it always sounded the same. The cleans were absolutely fantastic, and it took pedals amazingly.

It was noisy as HELL though, on the gain channels. The thing sounded like a buzzsaw when it wasn't being played. I had 2 different Savage's and they both sounded that way.

I sold it and got a Mark V, which I'm very much enjoying.

 

[D.K.]

Well, yeah, it's a beast that has its sound, You can instantly recognize that.

In comparison, the egnater is much more versatile, but sounds "nicer" and more cultivated. Not a bad thing, just different.

 

[beej]

Wow, you've asked every question in the book ... a tall order. I'll put in my two cents. You're best to do research on every category to learn more.

Combo amp vs. a stack

Really, whether or not you want an integrated speaker in one package. Often the guts of the amp are the same.

Advantage is you get everything in one package. Downside is it's heavy, you're stuck with one speaker (vs mixing and matching a bunch of different speaker cabinets- open back, closed back, ported, different speakers, etc.). Sometimes tube rattle can be an issue in combos.

I tend to prefer a head plus a portable cab. I've got a big setup and a little one- I can hold the head in one hand and small 1x12 in the other. But you don't always have the choice with amps.

Pedals vs. Rack units

Obviously each rack unit is larger than a pedal (and generally more expensive), but the different approach of going with a rack tends to be more about flexibility. If you have a lot of gear, it's generally easier to wire it up with splitters, switchers, etc in a rack and wire things up to be controlled externally. You'll often see guys with MIDI floorboards designed to recall programs in the rack gear. Makes it a breeze to handle complicated switching changes from multiple units, etc.

That said, there's nothing you can do with a rack that you can't do with pedals. You just have to be creative in how you set things up. Rack gear often has the advantage of programmability, whereas most pedals are set up with settings that aren't externally controllable (other than the on/off switch). Individually, pedals are small, portable and are easy to swap for other pedals when you fancy.

Mandatory pedals

Less is more. The best tones tend to be guitar -> amp. Best advice for someone who's new is to not overuse effects. Be subtle most of the time. A bit of delay, phase, compression, etc. can be nice. Too much reverb/delay/distortion/etc and next thing you know your sound is one big wash of mess.

Start small. Experiment slowly. Learn what works. Don't just buy the pedal du jour ... it's hard to appreciate them that way.

Effects send and return/loop

It's the point in an amplifier where the preamp section meets the output section, and not all amps have it.

Some effects tend to sound better before the preamp (these tend to include Wah, compressor, phaser, overdrive). Some sound better after (usually time based effects like chorus, delay, reverb). Some have an equal place in both (clean boosts, etc.)

A lot depends on your amp, settings and what you're going for. So many classic tones were everything into a cranked amp (yep, even chorus and delay). But when you're playing with a lot of distortion, that doesn't always work so well and you'll want some things in the loop.

Again, don't just listen to everyone. Try a pedal in both places and really see what you like. I still find I'm surprised that I like something when I didn't expect to.

My best advice is to keep trying things until you fall in love with your setup (or it just works fine for your gig). When you right the right amp and clan play it at the right volume, it can be magic, even without anything else.

Don't be afraid to experiment with everything ... and nothing!

 

[beej]

Lonney ... that board is nuts!