VISUAL--Differences between Tone Zone and EVH pup..

[dangerdog]

Hi I am new here so forgive me if this is in the wrong place or something.

I am wondering if there is any visual difference between an EVH Musicman Bridge pup and a Tone Zone....Can anyone speak conclusively to this? anything at all. Connector wires, imprinted numbers, bobbin colors?

I recently sold an EVH MM and now the buyer is claiming that the bridge pup is not original (he says it is a Tone Zone) and that the guitar is really only worth $1200...(he apparently came to this conclusion about it's value after speaking with "scott ball and the ernie ball rep in our sector and also an ernie ball dealer"). Apparently the Bridge pup is "the most crucial part of the guitar"....(I did not realize this).

So, besides the questionable valuation of a clean EVH with a non original pup, I am hoping someone can tell me what to look for so when I get his pictures of the pup can act accordingly.

Also, do these original pups come up for sale often? If so how much? My buyer might be fishing for a $700 discount due to the pup....seems pretty steep considering the guitar was clean but not close to mint. Not really a collectors peice.

 

[douglasspears]

Hi I am new here so forgive me if this is in the Apparently the Bridge pup is "the most crucial part of the guitar"....(I did not realize this).

I use the neck pup on my EVH about 80% of the time

Can't really speak to the difference in the two pups though, sorry. Good luck getting this sorted out.

 

[nobozos]

I can't speak intelligently about the similarities and differences between the two pickups, but I can offer you my perspective on the situation.

First off, I find it very difficult to believe that Scott Ball, or anyone else from EBMM would involve themselves in assessing the value of a used guitar.

Secondly, the pickups that were used in the EBMM/EVH are still available through EBMM (As used in the Axis). The only difference is the Axis pickups are coil-tappable. He would have to get with Customer Service to see if he could get an Axis pickup without having one to send in. If they wouldn't do it, they do come up on Ebay.

Thirdly, even if what he is saying is true, that does NOT make that guitar worth only $1200. The value of that guitar is not all wrapped up in the bridge pickup. He is literally trying to convince you that the bridge pickup is half the value of the guitar.

Does this guy expect you to give him some kind of refund?

Here's my advice. Explain to him that if it was not the original pickup, you are very sorry, but you had no knowledge of that. Ask him, since he seems to have connections with Scott Ball and other various EBMM employees, if he can use his influence to convince them to ship him an Axis pickup (same pickup as the EVH) Then tell him that you would gladly pay for the pickup from EBMM. I don't know how much EBMM would charge for the pickup, but I can't imagine it's more than $150.

 

[dangerdog]

I agree

I can't speak intelligently about the similarities and differences between the two pickups, but I can offer you my perspective on the situation.

First off, I find it very difficult to believe that Scott Ball, or anyone else from EBMM would involve themselves in assessing the value of a used guitar.

Secondly, the pickups that were used in the EBMM/EVH are still available through EBMM (As used in the Axis). The only difference is the Axis pickups are coil-tappable. He would have to get with Customer Service to see if he could get an Axis pickup without having one to send in. If they wouldn't do it, they do come up on Ebay.

Thirdly, even if what he is saying is true, that does NOT make that guitar worth only $1200. The value of that guitar is not all wrapped up in the bridge pickup. He is literally trying to convince you that the bridge pickup is half the value of the guitar.

Does this guy expect you to give him some kind of refund?

Here's my advice. Explain to him that if it was not the original pickup, you are very sorry, but you had no knowledge of that. Ask him, since he seems to have connections with Scott Ball and other various EBMM employees, if he can use his influence to convince them to ship him an Axis pickup (same pickup as the EVH) Then tell him that you would gladly pay for the pickup from EBMM. I don't know how much EBMM would charge for the pickup, but I can't imagine it's more than $150.

I know...I found it rather unusual that anyone affiliated with the company would comment as to the value of a used guitar...I have NEVER gotten a rep to comment on a value like that...with any company. I know many guitar company reps are forbidden from making statements like that...I am surprised EB would be any different.

Anyway there real question for now is whether the pup is original and if it is not what a fair value would be for one.

The buyer says the dead giveaway is the brass plate on the bottom...he says they are all black....that seems like it may be a reasonable assertion to me and I can see the brass plate in my pics

 

[dangerdog]

What color

I use the neck pup on my EVH about 80% of the time

Can't really speak to the difference in the two pups though, sorry. Good luck getting this sorted out.

Can you see on yours if it has a brass plate? or is it black?

 

[MetroGnome]

I don't buy his argument at all. I think he is fishing for a discount.

I'm not home so I can;t look at the brass plate on my EVH to help you out. I do know that the original bridge pickup it came with somehow self destructed. Ernie Ball replaced it promptly. This was nearly 19 years ago when it was new.


Perhaps a call to Tech Services to find out the specs of the pickups including what color the base plate is.

Good luck!

 

[Andrew Whitmore]

Sounds like this guy is a crook and he's trying to rip you off. He's trying to use what appears to be legit name dropping, to swindle you. "Oh I spoke to this person, that person and that guy there. They all told me you have to give me the guitar cheaper. Can I have most of my money back please?"

Your best bet would be to E-mail DiMarzio. Tell them your situation.

Steve Blucher, lead designer for DiMarzio's pickups, should know ALL the ins and outs of those pickups. And he will also tell you that this guy is trying to play you like a cheap violin. Bridge pickup being half value of the guitar PAHLEASE!

 

[dangerdog]

I hear you

Sounds like this guy is a crook and he's trying to rip you off. He's trying to use what appears to be legit name dropping, to swindle you. "Oh I spoke to this person, that person and that guy there. They all told me you have to give me the guitar cheaper. Can I have most of my money back please?"

Your best bet would be to E-mail DiMarzio. Tell them your situation.

Steve Blucher, lead designer for DiMarzio's pickups, should know ALL the ins and outs of those pickups. And he will also tell you that this guy is trying to play you like a cheap violin. Bridge pickup being half value of the guitar PAHLEASE!

Well right now the issue for me is whether or not the pup is original or not. I have no problem with small refunds based on a mistake on my part but $700 won't be happening. I would NEVER give anyone a huge partial refund like that based on heresy anyway.

Here is a pic he sent me of the bottom of the pup....I never opened it but I can see in my original pics that it does show brass from the top and the neck pup does not.

Really, my impression is that the guy is honest....just maybe exaggerating a little...I just can't believe anyone in an official position would volunteer a value like that. Especially since my years of selling guitars tell be that value is pretty friggin' low. I could see being on the phone with a rep and me saying "so maybe worth about what a used regular Axis would be worth, about $1200?" and the rep saying "uh, maybe".

 

[Andrew Whitmore]

Here is a pic he sent me of the bottom of the pup....I never opened it but I can see in my original pics that it does show brass from the top and the neck pup does not.

Yep that's a Tone Zone alright! Looks fairly new too. Glad to know that things are fairly amicable with the two of you.

Tell him if he wants an authentic MMEVH/MMAXIS 'Bucker that its very much possible with a slight mod to get super, super, super close to that pickup's sound, AKA replicate the pickup to a degree, that he should open a thread on DiMarzioForum.com - FYI The process I'm referring to is called "Half-Airing". I can explain it here if y'all are interested.

 

[Colin]

the pickup is not $700 in the first place

 

[azazael]

Theres no indication in the photo that its even hooked up. Even so would took him 10 mins to replace it with a tonezone and take a photo.

 

[dangerdog]

Thanks guys

I offered him $200 or he can return it for a full refund.

Usually my return policy is 90% even if it is totally my fault but that is just to scare away the scammers (and the "renters" and "tryers").

Thanks....nice to be a member here.

 

[e.mate]

the pickup is not $700 in the first place

+1 ...never ever is that going to happen. That's not just an exaggeration, that's attempted betrayal

I had a similar "aftershow party" with an Evilbay transaction some years ago, and I just offered to take back the guitar and reimburse. Apart from the fact that the guitar came not nearly as well packed as I sent it, I didn't really believe that someone would send back a guitar because of POTI KNOBS I had to admit, that it was my mistake...but I was definitely not willing to let €50,- off...ridiculous

 

[DrGonzo5150]

The process I'm referring to is called "Half-Airing". I can explain it here if y'all are interested.

I... am interested...

 

[Andrew Whitmore]

As long as DangerDog doesn't mind me giving a bit of an explanation in HIS thread.

First a bit of background for those who aren't obsessed with pickups. Ever wondered why there are DiMarzio pickups that have AIR in front of them? The Air Norton, Air Zone, Air Classics.

Quote from Dimarzio.com
"What are Airbuckers?
Airbuckers are full-sized humbuckers that contain a gap or space between the magnet and the polepieces. The distance is quite small, and may be filled with nothing but air or by some non-magnetic material. The purpose of the gap is to lessen the magnetic field over the pickup, which in turn lets the string vibrate more freely. This results in a purer, more open sound and improved sustain.
The other purpose of the “air” design is to reliably reproduce the performance of vintage humbuckers (1950s and 60s), many of which contain magnets weakened by age and mishandling. Weakened or "aged" magnets are inherently unstable, and therefore cause unpredictable performance. Airbuckers utilize stable, full-strength magnets, yet the magnetic field is the same as produced by an "aged" magnet, thus offering the performance advantage without the unpredictability."

Another quote from dimarzio.com

"What type of pickups were used in the Eddie Van Halen MusicMan Guitar?
These pickups were only available as original equipment on the EVH MusicMan guitar. MusicMan replaced the Van Halen guitar with a very similar model called the Axis, which uses the same pickups. The closest-sounding pickups we offer are the Air Norton™ for the neck position and the Tone Zone® for the bridge position."

Those who have experience with the TZ and the AN will know that when you A/B them to the AXIS pickups, they do sound ballpark similar. But, in comparison to the AN, the Axis neck pickup has more bite and snap to it, and is grainier all over. And in comparison to the TZ, the Axis bridge pickup has a more vintage feel and doesn't feel as overbearing.

So a few buddies of mine thought of HALF AIRING the pickups. That is making it so that the magnet in the pickup touches one set of the pole pieces, but not both as a tradition pickup would. So just to clarify, a tradition pickup has both sets of polepieces touching the mag; an Airbucker has neither of the sets of polepieces touching the mag; so, theoretically, a Half Aired pickup has one set of polepieces touching the mag.

The results are pretty pleasing. You get a Bridge pickup that has the vintage feel of an Air Zone, but the punch of the Tone Zone. You get a neck pickup that has the hi speed/vintage taste clarity of the Air Norton, but the sizzle and upper mid crunch of the Norton.

 

[threeminutesboy]

very interesting thanks for sharing this

 

[dangerdog]

Intersting indeed.

thanks for that....so so you ever see the original EVH pups come up for sale?

 

[Andrew Whitmore]

thanks for that....so so you ever see the original EVH pups come up for sale?

Yes, you do. OEM DiMarzios are kinda sort after on the Bay. Even moreso than Duncans, IMO.

 

[guitfiddle]

Thanks Andrew!

And good luck with your deal dangerdog, and welcome!

 

[Butch Snyder]

When I was looking into an Axis, I asked EBMM Customer Service about the pickups and the original EVH model pickups and how they came to be. I was told that EVH tried out pickups for the sig guitar. the one he liked most went into the guitar and are still there. The 2nd place pickups became the Tone Zone.