Off Topic When you write tunes..........

[PugNinjas]

Hey Now Fellow Knuckleheads,

I have been writing a lot of material lately and wanted to ask you folks this question. When you, as guitarists, start to compose original material do you consciously think in terms of lyric placement?

I found that most of the stuff I write, is created with a lyrical rhythm in mind, not particular words, but a loosely set pattern or where the words should go.

I always try to make what I'm writing interesting to perform because I think there is nothing worse that some boring repetitive structure that goes on and on and on while a singer is expounding on his theories of love, how to save the world, the wrongs in his life, etc.....

Just figured I'd ask,

Rich

 

[Spudmurphy]

All I think of is chords no harder than E A G !!

 

[INMT]

When I write........ vestal virgins, sacrifices and beer are involved......the first two items maybe be a nightmare brought on by to much of the third item.

What was I saying again.........

 

[Supreeth]

I almost always tend to write a song around a vocal melody which I then fit into the key I'm most comfortable singing it in. I then build the rest of the song around it. Having said that, I've had the best results when I write the lyrics first and then write a song around them since I have a context and a story, and I can try my best to narrate it using various musical elements.

I am a very melody oriented composer, and the chords for the rhythm are made up based on the melody and not the other way around which sometimes results in some weird voicings that I can't even name!

 

[Jack FFR1846]

All I think of is chords no harder than E A G !!

That immediately brought to mind Sting asking Andy what key they were playing "message in a bottle", to which Andy replies CsharpMinor....which is, of course what it's generally played in. There is an F form A and B form E in it.

jack

 

[rockerjt]

A lot of times I will write lyrics first and then music that fits the mood of the lyrics. Sometimes I just write what will be lyrics someday, but with no music in mind. Sometimes I just write the riffs and save them for later, or I adapt the music to fit previouslywritten lyrics or vice-versa. I rarely write the music with a vocal melody in mind, but my methods are screwed up and I make it harder than it should be. I rarely come up with something easily, and only once have I ever heard the whole song in my head and translated it to something real.

 

[spychocyco]

I struggle to write whole tunes. I can crank out riffs all day long, but I can't string them together very well. Often, I'll have an opening riff and a chorus riff (sometimes with a vocal melody in line), but no idea how to connect them. It takes me forever, and often help, to put the whole thing together.

 

[kbaim]

Obviously I can't be of any help in this Rich.

Looking forward to hearing the tunes though next vegas roadie!

 

[Astrofreq]

do you consciously think in terms of lyric placement?

Absolutely! The vocals are everything. People don't care what I'm playing as much as what the singer is singing. Every time I write something, nothing is set in stone until a melody works over it. Anyone can string together riffs for days, but that's not writing music. That's just stringing together riffs and every guitarist naturally wants to do that.

Guitarists are at a definite disadvantage in this area. From the get go we are primarily taught rhythm and then maybe improvising. Whereas almost every other instrument starts with melody. Most guitarists just don't think like that. We think in patterns and shapes.

That's why Michael Hedges was such a genius. His melodies were so intricately woven into his music, but still totally beautiful. Listen to The Happy Couple or The Naked Stalk for the perfect examples.

 

[eegor]

I'm going through a phase right now (or maybe a transition) of instrumental guitar music. I just can't get enough of it. I haven't really been writing a whole lot of music either until now. From what I can tell, I write stuff that will sound good under a long, melodic, emotional guitar solo. The stuff I tend to write doesn't lend itself at all to conventional lyrical melodies. A while ago, most of the stuff I wrote was really simple and would've sounded pretty lame under a guitar solo, so naturally lyrics would've fit. But, as my writing became more complex, I've found it more enjoyable to write technical, yet interesting riffs/lines.

 

[beej]

Not so much lyrics, but melody factors in for me. Sometimes I have music in mind and I try to fit a melody to it. Other times I've got a melody in my head and try to fit chords around it.

 

[candid_x]

rid inhibition

Been a long time since my cleffer days, but I believe that inhibition is the biggest destroyer of creativity, i.e. lyrics. For example, say you're happily married and have kids. One day or evening you see or meet a woman that makes your mind (and possibly other parts) go crazy. Great lyrical fodder! But what would the Mrs. say if she heard that? Another potentially good song down the tubes. You can't hold back for someone's sake, even someone you love very much, and write good material. I just don't believe it's possible. Better to join a church and write (safe) songs for the Lord than to try to write hot lyrics while holding back. That's why artists need especially intelligent and understanding wives, or no wives.

I think the same could be said for the music itself, though it's much easier to hide in the ambiguity of guitar wanking.

Going to edit that: understanding wives and/or husbands. And shame on me.

 

[mbgreene]

Been a long time since my cleffer days, but I believe that inhibition is the biggest destroyer of creativity, i.e. lyrics. For example, say you're happily married and have kids. One day or evening you see or meet a woman that makes your mind (and possibly other parts) go crazy. Great lyrical fodder! But what would the Mrs. say if she heard that? Another potentially good song down the tubes. You can't hold back for someone's sake, even someone you love very much, and write good material. I just don't believe it's possible. Better to join a church and write (safe) songs for the Lord than to try to write hot lyrics while holding back. That's why artists need especially intelligent and understanding wives, or no wives.

I think the same could be said for the music itself, though it's much easier to hide in the ambiguity of guitar wanking.

Going to edit that: understanding wives and/or husbands. And shame on me.

Or you could get married and spend the next 30 or so years writing silly love songs........What's wrong with that...............I'd like to know....

 

[candid_x]

Lol!

 

[PugNinjas]

Some interesting responses here, personally I have never written lyrics but I do try to create songs with a melodic theme for someone to follow or interpret.

I have to say that I never like it when the guitar solo is just a blatant copy of the lyrical melody, I understand it, but never liked it.

 

[Dante]

i always feel theres this thick coat of poly on ME... never actually dared to put on paper what i really feel.

i usually start writing text by listening to music that feeds the mood. that plays a big role. and while i'm listening to that music other musical (not text) ideas come to mind. this is the liberating effect of listening to enough jazz and Dream Theater. my mind wanders off better. sometimes i have to fish for solutions from alot of sources since the original text might be innapropriate for songs (like having 5 bars of text with no rhythm in them). it's funny but doing the whole thing over and over while listening to other songs causes me to pronnounce different words while thinking of the same verse(from memory, never read from paper).

as for music itself... it's pretty straightforward, enough hours into it always deliver what i'm looking for. just gotta do it in one go cuz i don't like redoing old songs. it just sucks when you got 3 great ways of doing the exact same **** and you have to got with just one for consistency's sake. although i usually end up using ABA logic rather than ABC... of course there's a moment when the well dries up cuz i'm tired of doing the same stuff over and over... and if i pick it up again in the future, it's gonna be something completely different...

sorry about the incoherence

 

[Astrofreq]

This may or may not be of any interest to you guys, but I loved this article and found it very useful in my own writing. For what it's worth.

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How To Not Sound Like Anybody Else (More or Less)...
... in 3 to 5 Miserably Painful Years by Wayne Krantz (07 Apr 02)

In the beginning, we WANT to sound like who we like. That's how we get on our feet as players; by imitating the greats, or even the near-greats or the not-so-greats. Anybody, really; we just want to sound like we know what we're doing.

Eventually though, after you've tried on your various idol's shoes for a number of years by copying their licks, looks, sound, approach, etc., you may find that you yearn to put a more personal stamp on your music. This yearning feeling can manifest in many ways, ranging from a simple nagging sensation when playing that Courtney Love lick for the six hundredth time, to full-blown nausea at the mere mention of Courtney. Depending on the intensity of your self-loathing, you may want to take steps to address these feelings of incongruity. With that in mind, I list here some thoughts on the subject:

If you feel your entire perspective of what guitar playing should sound like is being dictated by another player's style, you might want to stop listening to that person. Completely. Because there is no such thing as a "right" way to play the guitar. I went through this with Pat Metheny in 1980. No, he didn't sound like me; I sounded like him. When I realized I wasn't satisfied with that, I stopped listening to him altogether. Which raises Painful Step Number One (which is more or less the crux of this article): To some degree you're going to have to GIVE UP what you LOVE, 'cause what you LOVE ain't doin' you enough GOOD. It turns into its own kind of prison, you see, and that particular prison can, in many cases, stifle your creativity.

So let's say you've gone ahead and burned all your idol's lick tapes and you want to continue the exorcism. What's next? Painful Step Number Two: take your own playing completely apart. Analyze it like an Entomologist analyzes an Acarine. Question EVERYTHING. Start with your sound -can you change it so that it doesn't immediately put you in someone else's ballpark? Change the guitar? Change the amp? Get rid of/add chorus, distortion, delay, etc.? Assuming you're in a position to dictate your own context -ie., you have your own band -how can you change the composition, the instrumentation, the arranging, etc. so it doesn't constantly evoke the name of another?

Take your lines/chords apart. Could they stand to be more/less be-boppy, or fusiony, of rocky, or funky? Examine the balances between the elements of your playing. It's a reactionary process: you're looking to see what you have in common with your influences and you're giving up as much of it as you can, keeping only what you must. NOTHING IS A GIVEN. The only thing the listener needs from you is that you sound good, not that you sound like somebody else. That's hard to remember sometimes.

Okay, so now you've managed to get rid of just about everything you thought was cool and all you've got left are the notes c, e and an old wah-wah pedal. Now what? Painful Step Number Three: turn inward, look inside yourself and try to find something you can call your own. For me, it was my rhythmic imagination. But it could be anything, any small or big thing: a harmony, an emotional state, a color, a melody -anything. Once you have it clearly in your mind, then try to express it as musically as you can with that c, that e and that wah-wah pedal. Work with it. Develop it. Expand it. There's no telling where it could go.

If these measures seem extreme, you may want to temper them somewhat to fit with your own ideas and goals. One thing you can do: instead of just copping a lick from somebody that you like and trying to cram it into a solo somewhere, try to figure out WHY you liked the lick in the first place -what is it about its melodic, rhythmic or harmonic content that appeals to you -and then try to improvise with that concept in mind. That's a good way to learn from people without necessarily sounding like them; a way to disguise your influences, thereby making it easier for people to enjoy your music without constantly being reminded of something else.

It doesn't bother me to evoke "the Blues" or "Jazz" or "Rock" with my playing. These idioms have fallen into common domain now; nobody owns them, they belong to everyone. But it does bother me to hear myself playing with the voice of another specific individual. It interferes with my search for the truth, which is basically what I'm about with this stuff of music. Of course, there are other perspectives.

 

[NorM]

Obviously I can't be of any help in this Rich.

Looking forward to hearing the tunes though next vegas roadie!

+1

To me lyrics are wasted time between guitar solos

 

[candid_x]

To me lyrics are wasted time between guitar solos

Spoken like a true guitarist. lol

But what when you're the singer and the guitar player?

 

[skisquash]

Hey Now Fellow Knuckleheads
I found that most of the stuff I write, is created with a lyrical rhythm in mind, not particular words, but a loosely set pattern or where the words should go.

Rich,

Pretty close to that. I also tend to lay done a melody for the lyrical pattern. If I a mental or emotion that evokes I will tag it with a title or tag some of verses/chorus with lyrics as a holding spot. If it is my own, it would quickly pull together. If it is for the band, I'll leave room for the lead singer to pull his vibe into it or to buy into my musical sauce.