Question Would you consider peizo a "true" acoustic signal

[universe777]

Good morning fellow knucks!

On the eve of GC's big memorial day event I'm going to finally bite the bullet and for the 1st time in my life get some proper "gown man's" instrument cables. This is a truely a 1st, I've spent my entire life playing through the least expensive store-brand cables that $ can buy.

It hit me the other week at rehersal when I brought my new amp to play through and it sounded fantastic, except for the hum. My band mates were cool and gave me compliments on the sound - then during break one of them came up to me without saying anything, handed me a higher quality cable, then silently walked away again...as not to draw any attention to my humilition. HaHa, I love those guys! But yeah, ALL the hum was gone. And this wasn't a high-end cable mind you; This was like the $20 cable, as opposed to the 10 dollar ones I usually buy 2x a year.

So I'm looking at the Monster Cable brand and I've noticed that they offer different cables for different instruments, one of them being a cable tuned for acoustics:

"Designed to deliver pure acoustic tone.

This Monster Cable Acoustic Instrument Cable is made to deliver the warmth, harmonics, and sustain of your acoustic with precision and clarity. Magnetic fields in ordinary cables cause frequency and phase distortions, but the patented 3-way Time Correct windings in the Monster Acoustic Instrument Cable reject interference protecting all of your instrument's transient attack, full output, and critical overtones."

The acoustic cable is more expensive than their "guitar-optimized" cable, so I was wondering if we could kick it around on the forum and try to reach a consensus--->would you consider the peizo output on our Balls an acoustic signal that might benifit from a "optimized" cable?, or would you think it's more closely related to a standard magnetic pickup output?

Thoughts?

 

[beej]

There's been a lot of discussion about high end cables recently. (Go to any of the other guitar forums and you can read through dozens of pages of opinions!)

Personally, I think most of it is bunk. Monster, in particular, tends to spout a lot of nonsense about their cables, which I think are grossly overpriced. (Look up any of the terms monster is talking about and see if they make sense to you in the context of an instrument cable.)

You want to make sure cables are well shielded. Beyond that you're really worried about capacitance effects. The capacitance in long cable runs makes your sound more midrangey, taking away some highs. That's not a bad thing- for distorted guitar sounds, it's all in the midrange. Lots of guys like the effect that long cable runs have on their signal. The ones who don't use low capacitance cable or buffers.

I use the solderless Bill Lawrence low capacitance cable. It's not the George L stuff, it's quite a bit better. $60 gets you 50 feet of cable and 10 ends. You can make cables till the cows come home and have lots left over for your pedalboard. (Makes a big and a small size plug as well.)

Anyhow, you can read a lot about directionality, oxygen free copper and many such terms, but at the end of the day consider that cable is just one of many factors affecting your signal. If you can hear a difference with your ears, great. If not, get the cheapest stuff that does the job. You're probably going to lose or break the cable at some point anyway, don't break the bank on it.

 

[Octavarius]

I don't like that Monster is "tuning" or "optimizing" their cables for specific signals. That's just BS; a good cable should pass the original signal as unaffected as possible from point A to point B. If it colors your signal it's technically a bad cable. The effect may be desirable, though, but I certainly wouldn't pay that much for a cable that is designed to affect your signal in any way. A good quality transparent cable will work equally well for all applications and instruments. Period.

I'd look into either the Planet Waves Custom or Custom Pro series. They're very transparent and durable and very well shielded. Plus, they're molded (for durability), so for those who aren't looking into soldering their own cables, etc., I think these are perfect. I've had my 20ft Custom for five years now without any issues, while the "$10 store brand" type of cables you mentioned that I was also buying before would usually all break within a few months.

 

[ShaneV]

I'd agree with monster being largely BS salesmen (at least for cables, their Monster Power division is pretty above board). Just get a cable that's well made and well shielded. I like the kind with the old-school metal screw on ends (as opposed to the newer molded plastic) because you can always take them apart and re-solder them if need be.

 

[universe777]

I'd agree with monster being largely BS salesmen (at least for cables)

Reminds me of a time when I was purchasing home theater gear and the sales person tried to get me to buy the $100 Monster Brand fiber optic cable as opposed to the 15 dollar one..."Monster FiberOptic is made from the best quality cable, connectors, etc..."

which I never understood in that case - It's fiber optic, 100% digital...There's no difference in signal quality, it's a binary system...either pass or fail.

 

[ShaneV]

Reminds me of a time when I was purchasing home theater gear and the sales person tried to get me to buy the $100 Monster Brand fiber optic cable as opposed to the 15 dollar one..."Monster FiberOptic is made from the best quality cable, connectors, etc..."

which I never understood in that case - It's fiber optic, 100% digital...There's no difference in signal quality, it's a binary system...either pass or fail.

I could see his argument in terms of durability maybe but yeah, that's kinda their MO. "This box is full of voodoo, buy it!" I'm not saying Monster Cables aren't built of good stuff, I'm sure they are, but the classifications (that's a jazz cable, don't try to use distortion with it, you'll kill us all!) and price have always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Larry]

I've always bought the Monster cable for their warranty. Whenever the cable failed I just take it to a local Guitar Center and get a brand new one.

If I ever need more cable, I think I'll go the route Beej mentioned though as I never thought of making my own even though I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.

 

[sickindian]

I was really surprised when I first saw HD cables for guitar and my reaction was "Whattt A BS!!" but i can tell that there is a difference between normal "cheap" cable and better one i.e. MOGAMI, MONSTER and the price of it is affordable.
The one thing that im not sure about is quality of connectors but thats off topic.

 

[Astrofreq]

I love the cloth coated Dimarzio instrument cables. Last a long time and sound great, to my ears at least.

 

[ShaneV]

I love the cloth coated Dimarzio instrument cables. Last a long time and sound great, to my ears at least.

I use those for my 6" jumper cables, I like them.

For my long runs I have some of the old EB cables with the regular metal ends that I got super discounted when MF was trying to unload the last few they had in stock before the new, molded plastic ones came in. They're basically kink- proof, so easy to coil up or move with.

 

[Spudmurphy]

+1 I agrre that it's total bull cr4p from Monster.

Do as Beej says and try making your own - use good quality (obviously) cable and Neutrik connectors.

It's kind of ironic really I found a picture of me playing in a club over 30 years ago my Gibson SG into a Marshall using a curly lead - I still have that lead (minus jack plugs) and will have to solder new ones on and fire it up.

 

[DrKev]

Guys, EB do cables too. They are really good. ShaneV knows. It's not a secret.

Readin that blurrrb from Monster Cables makes me really angry. Just another of many companies who try to get the public to spend more money than they need by blinding them with pseudo-science BS.

Companies like that display a total lack of respect for anything other than getting as much cash as they can outta people who don't know better. Legally it may not be fraud but morally it's gotta be damn close. Where do the rules on false advertising fall on things like this? Does Wonderdog know anything along these lines?

I saw an ad the other day for some sort of "acoustically treated" mains power cable to make your amp sound better. You can plug in your kettle with this thing, for $150!! I'm not kidding you here.

the sales person tried to get me to buy the $100 Monster Brand fiber optic cable as opposed to the 15 dollar one..."Monster FiberOptic is made from the best quality cable, connectors, etc..."

which I never understood in that case - It's fiber optic, 100% digital...There's no difference in signal quality

I remember something similar from one of the HiFi big brand names (don't remember which one) which went like this - optical cable "with gold plated connectors for superior sound quality".


Anyway, EB do cables too. We know they're good, there is no BS, they're nice people who respect their customers, and it's EB. It's a no brainer.

 

[bkrumme]

High end cables are snake oil.

I get all of mine from here: Guitar Cable Every cable is made to order, made in the USA, and tested individually when it's assembled. You won't get a bad cable shipped to you.

Kinda reminds me of Music Man a little....

 

[73h Nils]

I have a friend who works for a high-end electronics store. Monster Cable is upmarked 95% in some cases :s

 

[the24thfret]

I've read articles that test cables for response and they found that high end cables do nothing more than what a normal cable does. Just make sure it works and save your money.

 

[beej]

Well, again, there are some electrical effects from cable. Capacitance is the big one and it makes a noticeable difference when you have long cable runs.

Just don't think that expensive = better.

 

[universe777]

Thanks so much everyone for checking out my thread and posting your responses! I'm still doing my homework as far as deciding what cables to INVEST in...yes, the cost of admission on some of the different cable options is high, but I'm also taking into account the lifetime warrenty (haha, by that logic I'll only need to buy 2 cables for the next 50 or 60 years I'll be playing!).

I really do appreciate all of the feedback; However, I'd like to revisit the initial question:

Would you consider the output characteristics from a Ball's piezo more akin to a true acoustic signal (like one provided from a high end acoustic, which usually has a bridge transducer as well as in internal mic), or is it more closely related to a magnetic pickup output?

To my ears, the piezo is extremely dynamic, much more than the magnetic p'ups. But on the same token, I don't own (or know anyone who does) a high end acoustic to compair it to, so I really have no way of saying if a "true" amplified acoustic signal is even more dynamic and complex in it's overtones.

 

[bkrumme]

Would you consider the output characteristics from a Ball's piezo more akin to a true acoustic signal (like one provided from a high end acoustic, which usually has a bridge transducer as well as in internal mic), or is it more closely related to a magnetic pickup output?

It's definitely closer to acoustic than electric if that's what you're asking. If you have it or can find it, check out the very beginning of Dream Theater's "Live Scenes From New York" where John Petrucci is playing what sounds like a strummed acoustic. It's a JP6 with piezo and sounds great! I think he's just using a DI box straight into the mixer for that sound.

If you like, I can record a couple samples tonight with my JP6 and JP7s. The piezo is one of the reasons I'm into Music Man guitars. Gotta have that 7 string acoustic sound

 

[beej]

"Acoustic signal" is kind of an oxymoron in this context. The signal is electric, not acoustic (in the air).

Anyhow, the frequency bandwidth should be the same whether you're talking about a piezo or magnetic pickups. You'll have different overtones, etc. but in roughly the same spectrum.

As far as transmission, what's going to matter is impedance. (You've got audio signal traveling in the cable, not microwave frequencies!) High impedance (passive), you're going to have a bit of signal loss, capacitance, etc. Low impedance (active), it's going to be less affected.

If anything, your piezo signal is going to be less affected by your choice of cable, simply because it's an active signal.

 

[bkrumme]

I think we're really talking about the SOUND of the signal here.

The piezo in a Music Man guitar is going to work just like the under-saddle sensor in an acoustic guitar, except each saddle on the MM has its own crystal instead of a single sensor under the saddle of the acoustic.

I can't tell much of a difference between the amplified sound of my JP6 and the amplified sound of my Taylor 315ce. The only place where the 315ce beats the JP6 is in resonance and depth, especially in recordings where I use the Taylor ES and a mic in front of the sound hole.