Cables coloring tone???

[maddog]

There are measurable differences in cables. Easiest to check is resistance and capacitance. Inductance is a little harder but doable with the proper test set. Skin-effect causes problems as well. In theory these values will affect what you hear. In practice, debatable.

When I was a major audiogeek, I did an A/B blind comparison to some very skeptical EE's. Their collective jaws hit the floor. This was with high-end gear. No idea how it really affects the sound of a Bongo running thru a Sunn head into an Ampeg cab.

A poor cable will sound poor. Whether due to bad solder joints, too much resistance, etc. Switching to a good cable will make it appear as if adding content that was originally getting filtered out.

That's all I'm going to say. That, and let your ear be the judge.

 

[AnthonyD]

...Monster cables add bass to your tone, but that the Mogami cables were crystal clear.

Can a cable really affect your tone in any noticeable way???

I am a big fan of "quality" cables - instrument, speaker, interconnects - to ensure there is no noise or interference introduced along the way. Crap cables are never worth their price.

But for me a quality cable is a quality cable and any quality cable generally do the job. At some point the specs and marketing wars go way beyond the audible range.

 

[Aussie Mark]

Differences in cable quality have as much impact on a punter listening to a live band in a crowded bar as, say, tweeters in a bass cabinet, running a biamped bass rig, or changing your preamp tube from Sovtek to an NOS Mullard.

On the other hand, in a studio, all these differences may be discernible.

 

[scottbass71]

Skin-effect causes problems as well.

Sorry Maddog Skin-effect is more Radio and Microwave Frequencies not Audio Frequencies which relates to musical Instruments.

 

[Oldtoe]

I have purple TRS-TRS cables going to the subs in my PA.

Now they'll only thump when I play Village People tunes through them.

 

[maddog]

Sorry Maddog Skin-effect is more Radio and Microwave Frequencies not Audio Frequencies which relates to musical Instruments.

Radio Frequency bandwidth is from 9KHz to 300GHz.

The human audible bandwidth is from 20Hz-20KHz. There is overlap.

Theoretically, it can dip down into the 10-20KHz range. According to the simplification given by:

Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2mm diam cable can give 10% loss at 10KHz.

Litz wire is used to mitigate the effect down in the low kHz's. A favorite of the high-end cable manufacturers.

I'd be interested in seeing your calculations.

edit: aw jeez. 3400 posts.

 

[Aussie Mark]

Radio Frequency bandwidth is from 9KHz to 300GHz.

The human audible bandwidth is from 20Hz-20KHz. There is overlap.

Theoretically, it can dip down into the 10-20KHz range. According to the simplification given by:

Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2mm diam cable can give 10% loss at 10KHz.

Litz wire is used to mitigate the effect down in the low kHz's. A favorite of the high-end cable manufacturers.

I'd be interested in seeing your calculations.

edit: aw jeez. 3400 posts.

Warning: Electronics geeks p!ssing contest ahead

 

[Psychicpet]

I have A/B'd Monster with an 'even-more-high-end' cable and immediately there was a noticeable difference in the tone. The really 'high-end' cable was very transparent, the way I knew this was because the Monster cable had an audible 'scooped' sound, it had reduced mids giving it a "boosted bass and treble" sound.

The way i look at monster is this, you want your bass/guitar to sound different? Use Monster.

and yes, all of this isn't really noticeable live but then again, it is noticeable, so I guess, whatever lifts yer kilt.

 

[scottbass71]

Warning: Electronics geeks p!ssing contest ahead

Just Undoing my Fly Mark

From Your Link to wikiPedia

The skin effect causes the effective resistance of the conductor to increase with the frequency of the current. The effect was first described in a paper by Horace Lamb in 1883 for the case of spherical conductors, and was generalized to conductors of any shape by Oliver Heaviside in 1885. The skin effect has practical consequences in the design of radio-frequency and microwave circuits and to some extent in AC electrical power transmission and distribution systems. Also, it is of considerable importance when designing discharge tube circuits.

Also Aren't we talking about Basses so Radio Frequency bandwidth is from 9KHz to 300GHz do you consider 9 KHz Bass Frequency???
Last thing Theoritically we hear to 20KHz but it is more likely 12-14KHz depending on your age.


You show me your Calculations then I will show you mine

 

[Road Pop]

This cable or That cable? Butch at Bayou makes great cables! I haven't had one go bad. Makes them in almost any form. Are they the best? Hell if I know, but they last and I don't here any crackles.

From a price point, they can't be beat. He's an electrician that happens to play bass that happens to try out everything he gets his hands on. I'll order from him cause of that. Buy the ends and add a buck a foot. Plus great service ala a mini EBMM.

 

[maddog]

Sorry Maddog Skin-effect is more Radio and Microwave Frequencies not Audio Frequencies which relates to musical Instruments.

Also Aren't we talking about Basses so Radio Frequency bandwidth is from 9KHz to 300GHz do you consider 9 KHz Bass Frequency???
Last thing Theoritically we hear to 20KHz but it is more likely 12-14KHz depending on your age.

Me no comprendo. First you say skin effect doesn't occur in the audio spectrum. Then you switch to discussion of 9KHz and its relation to the electric bass. Why the obfuscation?

You show me your Calculations then I will show you mine

already did. According to Mr. Terman, diam = 200mm/sqrt(freq.) gives the diam of the wire such that there is 10% loss at freq. 2mm is believable for a speaker wire. More hard pressed for an instrument cable.

Quote:
The skin effect causes the effective resistance of the conductor to increase with the frequency of the current. The effect was first described in a paper by Horace Lamb in 1883 for the case of spherical conductors, and was generalized to conductors of any shape by Oliver Heaviside in 1885. The skin effect has practical consequences in the design of radio-frequency and microwave circuits and to some extent in AC electrical power transmission and distribution systems. Also, it is of considerable importance when designing discharge tube circuits.

I never refuted skin effect having an affect in the spectrum you gave. If, by your qoutation of Wikipedia, you are implying that it won't have an affect in the audio frequency, I fail to grasp your logic. Stating the number "2" is an integer does not preclude it from being a real number. Much the same here. Because the statement does not explicitly call out the audio spectrum does not preclude it from affecting said spectrum.

Just Undoing my Fly Mark

sorry I zipped your fly up with it still hanging out.

your statements are about as unsubstantiated as mine.

Again, show me your calculations which state skin effect cannot occur in the audio frequency and I'll gladly shut my mouth. Not stating that skin effect will actually cause an audible difference in a bass setup. Just saying it is theoretically possible.

 

[phatduckk]

im with the guys... i have 2 brand name cables that have good reps and they've both lasted a couple years now.

the no-name junk's died on me and fallen apart and crackled pretty quick.

 

[Psycho Ward]

I use only high grade left hand cables, and they do help in getting that “lefty sound”.

The thing that has the largest effect on the tone of your bass is the color of your pickguard, but I don’t want to hijack this thread.

 

[adouglas]

The thing that has the largest effect on the tone of your bass is the color of your pickguard, but I don’t want to hijack this thread.

I would have thought it'd be the amount of clothing you're wearing while you play it.....

 

[bovinehost]

Strap length, trust me.

Wear it higher, your bass response falls off.

Lower, it gets thumpier.

Nearer the testicular field, I think is the explanation.

 

[1Echo]

Nearer the testicular field, I think is the explanation.

Hey, you can't have balls without ...... well, you get the picture.

 

[Oldtoe]

Bass tone just gets prettier when a woman plays.




the quietly saves us all from ourselves,

 

[T-bone]

You guys are all Dullard Bongoloids aren't you

tbone

 

[tadawson]

The main point that seems to be getting missed here is that losses due to skin effect are primarily resistive, and have impact on power transmission - RF, AC power, and the main issue is that as frequency rises, the center portion of the conductor does not carry current, thus reducing a conductors current carrying capacity. Looking further down in the Wiki reference, you will also see a table noting frequency vs. skin depth, and will note that even at 100KHz, well above audio, the depth is .22 mm! Which is FAR larger than the center conductors of typical audio cables! Note: That means skin effect does not come into play in those conductors on small cables at our signal levels! If you were trying to push 10,000 watts of 50KHz down a wire, perhaps it would be an issue, but for our stuff, sorry, it's not!

And I also found it interesting, that the text referenced in that link (Engineering Electromagnetics by Hayt) happens to be sitting on my shelf from College (I took that course from the man himself . . . ). I would post the equations, but frankly, the character set on these sites does not allow the symbols needed, and that link gives more than you will ever need.

already did. According to Mr. Terman, diam = 200mm/sqrt(freq.) gives the diam of the wire such that there is 10% loss at freq. 2mm is believable for a speaker wire. More hard pressed for an instrument cable.

This quote is flat out incorrect. What he said is that there will be a 10% increase in RESISTANCE, NOT LOSS. It also assumes that the wire is large enough for skin effect to even exist, which in our cables, and at our frequencies, it will not. But even putting all those facts aside, let's make believe that it actually could occur, as per the quote, and work that scenario.

Since the resistance of our cables at typical lengths is in the order of tenths of an ohm or less, and our amp inputs are in the order of tens of thousands, then let's look at the losses in the cable, OK?

Let's say that the bass puts out 1volt (easy number, probably a bit high, but whatever . . . ) and the amps input impedance is 100KOhms (maybe a bit low, but I'm going conservative here . . if anything, this will make things look worse, not better) Assuming a perfect cable, then the current is, according to ohms law:

V=IR, or V/R=I, 1/100000=.00001 amps, or .01 milliamps. Very little, but as expected in a small signal device! Now let's look at the loss in the typical cable - .1 ohms . . .

Once again, V=IR, so .00001 * .1 = .000001 volts! That's just for the cable, no other effects! But now, let's put in 10% additional loss for skin effect:

V=IR, so .00001 * .11 = .0000011 volts loss, or .0000001 additional from one volt!
So, in terms of percentages, that would be .0000001 percent additional loss in the signal actually transmitted! So, folks, who have followed me this far . . . yeah, you can calculate the additional loss due to skin effect, but do you really give a rats ass in this case? The loss from DC (perfect wire) to the 10% case, is still too low to be perceptible, and probably too low to even measure! The resistance across connectors and such will be much greater!

- Tim

 

[Bass Control]

I would have thought it'd be the amount of clothing you're wearing while you play it.....

Please don't tempt him... he'll go Al Gore on us and post our favorite picture with the necessary elements of tone influencers labeled and explained...