Project SUB1

[Kaloyan]

Hello everyone. Super long story - short. I bought my SUB1 5 days ago for $50 from a guy that really didn't care about it in a shape that I'd never leave any one of instruments. It sounded totally dark (assuming the 250K pots) and had lots of dents and high frets. After careful 'set up' I really couldn't bear the nitro finish of the neck so here's how it all started and this is what I shall discuss with you first.
At the end of the day even if this project was doomed because of my incompetence I think I was still going to be able to make peace with the $50 starting point. None of this could have been accomplished without the help of two people that work at a local Guitar Repair Shop (3rd Coast Guitar Service - Chicago, IL).

1. The neck finish came off pretty quick using 220 sand paper after carefully taping the rosewood and at that time I wasn't feeling like sanding the head of the neck so I left it black (trying to copy today's musicmEn). I shaped it totally to my liking with an offset rear radius and I finished it with 320 sand paper after which I used 00 steel wool and all that was done in an hour or so before I applied the first layer of tung oil. I have to admit this is NOT my favorite finish so far But just for a lack of proper luthier education and also prolonged consultation I simply decided to go with it. It really didn't turn out that bad but definitely sticky. I have applied 3 times for the neck and 5 times on the head and I haven't buffed it yet But still ... not my thing. That much for the neck. Honestly it looks and feels great but the finish... We'll see how this will turn out after the buffing.
2. Now for the body. Holy Mother of the Holiest! This was quite a nerve test experience. I purchased a Dremel Multi-Max machine just because of its flexibility and started stripping off the paint. I have to admit that I'd personally NEVER EVER think of using anything like it (I still left it inside the hum pockets). This actually wasn't that hard after using 80 sand paper. It took me around 3 hrs to complete the body paint removal. After that I visited the professionals for a quick instruction and guidance. Everything turned out as I pre-meditated it But ... Yes, the favorite part. THE POLY!!! Here's where my trouble started. It was looking yellowish and after I carved the body (Petrucci style (which actually in my opinion was NOT a great success just because the angle the they used But that we can discuss later) to ensure much better playability than the original 'design'). That carved part was showing the actual wood. Now I really don't think that poplar is that bad looking bad sounding either. I didn't take any photographs of that stage due my dedication to finish the project withing the weekend (I am sure you all understand).
3. So there you have it. Nicely carved forearm relief surrounded by poly. Well I decided to strip that off too... I went to Home Depot and grabbed a Heat Gun and FEW putty knives just because if I were to try to sand it off that alone would have been at least 2 days work... Well - Yes, MusicMan had done a great job insulating the body!
Ladies and gentlemen allow me to proudly announce the most fascinating sealing job I've ever seen done so far. It took me 3 hrs to try to take all of that off the body making sure that I don't burn the body at thousand degress (simply because the 400 was too slow).

Then I put back the neck and the bridge and the tuners and the strings to see what I've done. It was a great experience listening to the bear wood and the tones out of it. Much better than the somehow 'plastic' sounding electric guitar .. sometimes ..

Now it's time for a hand sanding job to ensure that all the angles are kept and all the curves are as even as they could be when done by hand.

Questions I have as follow:

1. Any suggestions for pick ups? I have 3 sets of DiMarzio and I like them a lot but they are in different body woods.
2. I really appreciate the natural colours from the body. Any finishes known that don't add as much as after color as tung oil?
3. Suggestions, questions comments?

Feel free to criticize or compliment.

I shall submit a link to all the pictures that I have so far. Sorry for the long read and thank you!

Here you are!

MusicMan Custom pictures by EmbedTheWidget - Photobucket

Your opinion matters! Thanks.

Regards,

Kaloyan

 

[ShaneV]

Wow, 50 dollars is a steal! That's an amazing deal you got. Looking good so far I think, what were the DiMarzios you had and liked and in what woods? Steve Morse's pickups would definitely sound good in Poplar (they're designed for it after all) but I'm not sure if they're your style or not.

 

[MusicManJP6]

Great job so far!

 

[Jack FFR1846]

Nice job.....fellow SubRestorer!

I could not tell for sure, but thought I saw some of the same "overly careful" maskings that I did. On the neck, once you get the majority of the paint off....use some 320 then 600 and sand the rest of the black finish off. You CAN sand the rosewood. Then re-apply the tru-oil and it'll look like new. I had to do this with mine. The tru-oil does very well with new applications. Also, was the neck that you tru-oil'd. After hitting every Dick's and gun shop I could find and finding no Birchwood-Casey gunstock wax, I went back to the gun shop where I bought the tru-oil. They had to wait for the owner to order it for me but then said that any good car wax with carnouba wax would work fine. I happen to have some Zymol from the days when I showed a car and used that. It worked and felt great. It feels just like the neck of my Axis now.

I don't want to hear about finish drying times! I'm using all water based Urathane and let me tell you......it cures slowly and does not fully cure for a very long time. I'll let you know when it's completely cured! It's taken me 5 cans of the stuff (spray cans) to do the body and am just now finishing the pick guard (birch).

Take a good look at the body. Mine had obvious greenish wood and whitish wood. It became less obvious with stain. If you're lucky enough to have an all-one-color wood, then go for it however you like. If you want to do a burst, however....just take a brick and whack your head with it. It's less painful than creating a burst.

I think if I were to do another of these (I'm considering it) I would either do a solid paint color or go with the ReRanch system. I've spent as much on my own system that a ReRanch from the beginning would have been cheaper and probably come out better.

jack

 

[B2D]

$50?

I hate you!

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Kaloyan]

Nice job.....fellow SubRestorer!

I could not tell for sure, but thought I saw some of the same "overly careful" maskings that I did. On the neck, once you get the majority of the paint off....use some 320 then 600 and sand the rest of the black finish off. You CAN sand the rosewood. Then re-apply the tru-oil and it'll look like new. I had to do this with mine. The tru-oil does very well with new applications. Also, was the neck that you tru-oil'd. After hitting every Dick's and gun shop I could find and finding no Birchwood-Casey gunstock wax, I went back to the gun shop where I bought the tru-oil. They had to wait for the owner to order it for me but then said that any good car wax with carnouba wax would work fine. I happen to have some Zymol from the days when I showed a car and used that. It worked and felt great. It feels just like the neck of my Axis now.

I don't want to hear about finish drying times! I'm using all water based Urathane and let me tell you......it cures slowly and does not fully cure for a very long time. I'll let you know when it's completely cured! It's taken me 5 cans of the stuff (spray cans) to do the body and am just now finishing the pick guard (birch).

Take a good look at the body. Mine had obvious greenish wood and whitish wood. It became less obvious with stain. If you're lucky enough to have an all-one-color wood, then go for it however you like. If you want to do a burst, however....just take a brick and whack your head with it. It's less painful than creating a burst.

I think if I were to do another of these (I'm considering it) I would either do a solid paint color or go with the ReRanch system. I've spent as much on my own system that a ReRanch from the beginning would have been cheaper and probably come out better.

jack

Hello Jack. I was sure you'd participate in this since I decided to post after looking at your work. My guitar doesn't have that much of a greenish colour on it although it still does on the upper part of the body. I am unhappy with my neck work so most likely I shall sand the tung oil off and use the 600 sand paper on it. I wasn't sure whether I could work on the rosewood since some people around me have been totally against it. I'll try to find those chemicals that you mentioned and rework it. Now when it's about the body I have at least 2-3 days of work until I bring it to the desired shape and I am still debating which way to head, whether nitro, poly or one guy recommended an easy water based finish. Another one suggested the reRanch. It's becoming frustrating =)

 

[Kaloyan]

Wow, 50 dollars is a steal! That's an amazing deal you got. Looking good so far I think, what were the DiMarzios you had and liked and in what woods? Steve Morse's pickups would definitely sound good in Poplar (they're designed for it after all) but I'm not sure if they're your style or not.

I have D-Sonic and a PAF Joe that I like somehow in a basswood guitar. Then we are talking about a combo of Steve's Special and Air Norton in a basswood guitar and a Super Distortion and an Ibanez USA F1 in a mahogany. All DiMarzio so far.

 

[Kaloyan]

Great job so far!

Thanks!

 

[Kaloyan]

$50?

I hate you!

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Sticky1973]

I have D-Sonic and a PAF Joe.... and Air Norton....All DiMarzio so far.

I have a D Sonic and Air Norton in my Sub1; both sound great.

The D Sonic pickup blade is facing the neck at the moment, but I intend to flip it for a trial period.

Fantastic effort on the Sub, Kaloyan. You've dug deep with those mods, great effort!

 

[Jack FFR1846]

I started with water based because I wanted red stain. Well, I found it easily in water but none in oil based. After maybe 100 coats of stain (no, I'm not kidding), it finally had sunk in enough to be to my liking. Then some protective water based urathane. Then I had to experiment with an oil based black paint for fogging, which I was unhappy with at first so had to sand and redo. Finally was as happy as I could be with it and continued with the urathane. It gets hard enough to sand and even polish in a week, but it is still soft and even leaving the guitar on a sweat shirt had the seams marring the finish. I would not recommend it.

Lacquer is what I would probably do next. Easy to use, easy to fix. Downsides are that you will have to watersand it (don't watersand water urathane....it was my first big mistake). And with lacquer, you have to put on tons of coats. It does shrink when done and will eventually start to crack. Some people like that look....I don't.

Real Urathane is very difficult because of all the equipment you need. I painted my Cobra with Urathane about 10 years ago and have no desire to do it again. It's expensive to buy....the minimum amounts sort of require that you're going to do 10 guitars....and you have to have very good protective equipment. You don't want to inhale the stuff at all without a VOC respirator or forced air. Once in place, let it sit a week and then block it out (watersand) and polish and you're done. It's what EBMM uses and is probably the absolute best choice out there.

If you redo the neck, sand it down and stay somewhat light on the side of the neck. I could not get all the black off otherwise. The Birchwood Casey Tru-oil is really easy to use. It's cheap to buy and Dicks and gun shops all have it. Maybe $5 for a small bottle. I put it on with a cotton cloth and let it sit an hour, wiped it down. Maybe a week later, put on a second coat and after dry wiped it off and buffed a bit, then a week later, waxed.

Have fun with it....you got a killer deal.

jack

 

[Sub1 Zero]

Looking good!

If you don't want that neck pickup, let me know!

 

[Astrofreq]

That rules. leave it unfinished. It looks cool

 

[Kaloyan]

That rules. leave it unfinished. It looks cool

Yes. It s decided that I won't be painting it. Shall order red DiMarzio also.

 

[Kaloyan]

Okay. First, thanks to everyone for participating and sharing opinion. Today I started the body in detail. This time I shall take photographs of the major transitions so if somebody else decides to work on their 'cheap' guitar at least they could have a good reference point. As I mentioned stripping the poly finish was a painful job which luckily didn't turn out damaging to the body (since the heat gun operates on high temps). I had to leave around 0.4 mm of poly around the guitar horns which I am working on today. I am using a simple drill (its capacity shouldn't exceed 3000 rpm due to the sand drum instructions) and a sand drum as already mentioned and a very risky grit number - 120. Let's keep in mind that the poly is 95% stripped off so working with a 1300 rpm drill and a high grit sand paper would require steel nerves oh and steel made forearm ... heavy drills. I use a simple ruler that I run along the body to see whether any curves have occurred during the drill and hand sanding. Front and back are almost ready. It's time for the sides ... Pictures to come. Looks great so far ... Your opinion matters! Thanks again!

 

[Jack FFR1846]

At this point, you may want to go by hand to complete the paint removal. I did all mine by hand. 120 to 240 with a sanding sponge on the flat surfaces. I do recommend getting all the paint off the edges of the guitar (I didn't) as I think it reacts badly to new finishes being applied.

I did use a belt sander clamped in a vice with a bunji chord holding the trigger on.....(why do I picture my chain saw on a rope swing?) when I did the contours. I used 80 grit on it and went right to hand sanding later.

Any decisions on what you're doing for a finish? Even if you leave it "natural", you'll want something to protect it from the elements. Even the Tru-oil can be used and is really easy to work with.

jack

 

[Kaloyan]

At this point, you may want to go by hand to complete the paint removal. I did all mine by hand. 120 to 240 with a sanding sponge on the flat surfaces. I do recommend getting all the paint off the edges of the guitar (I didn't) as I think it reacts badly to new finishes being applied.

I did use a belt sander clamped in a vice with a bunji chord holding the trigger on.....(why do I picture my chain saw on a rope swing?) when I did the contours. I used 80 grit on it and went right to hand sanding later.

Any decisions on what you're doing for a finish? Even if you leave it "natural", you'll want something to protect it from the elements. Even the Tru-oil can be used and is really easy to work with.

jack

Hi Jack,

It seems that the 4 hrs that I put into it today were definitely worth it! I am just about to post the pictures of the sides, the front and back. It's not finished yet although the surface is leveled very very well.
As far as finish I really haven't decided yet.
I have somebody that insists on using (I really didn't remember the name) a water based clear finish that in his opinion looks great and it's not a hot lot of a pain to wet sand its imperfections. He also is against me trying to poly or nitro it just because he doesn't think I'd be able to handle it which quite honestly really pi$$e$ me off but that's a different story.
The debate is turning into a drama =) Knowing poly or the finish you mentioned (that MusicMan uses) probably would be the BEST for what I am looking for but I don't think I have the environment, preparation and the necessary skill to apply it. Sometimes I wonder if it was possible to send it to the factory for a clear finish =)))) Really...
The tone matters the most ... then is the colour which I don't want to alter even a percent... Suggestions?

 

[Kaloyan]

Okay. Pictures uploaded. I am sorry that you have to switch windows but somehow I think it's better for anyone to see details, suggest, criticize etc. when the pictures are in their original size. Either way. You could see where I decided to stop using the heat gun just because of the overwhelming temperatures and the sensitivity of the neck pocket. Now that I see better I think I sort of ruined the forearm cut (of course which I'll fix tomorrow) since a better idea/shape came to my mind while I was doing it. I tend to double-hand so why have a sharp curve on the 'inside' right? Yeah, I know, I am taking it too far but hey ... we'll see the outcome. Either way. I plan on fixing the rounds tomorrow without killing the line that shaped because of the hand sanding today. Almost ready. 320 grit all the way around!
I wonder how could I measure same width of the stripe all around the front and back.

I have one more day work before I put the body under the UVB lamps for an additional curing... Advices? Suggestions? Comments?

Can't wait until the body is Perfectly! done so I could sand the neck AGAIN for a better finish. I think I don't appreciate tung oil. Suggestions? (Thanks Jack)

Shoot!

Oh, and the photos:

MusicMan Custom 1 pictures by EmbedTheWidget - Photobucket

Thank you all! Very soon more and better results.

 

[Kaloyan]

I have a D Sonic and Air Norton in my Sub1; both sound great.

The D Sonic pickup blade is facing the neck at the moment, but I intend to flip it for a trial period.

Fantastic effort on the Sub, Kaloyan. You've dug deep with those mods, great effort!

Almost ready with the final contour stage! Monday and Tuesday are finishing days. I've decided on a white pearl and a poly finish... I am excited and also very insecure =)

 

[Sticky1973]

White pearl sounds a great choice.

Looking forward to the pics.