EBMM SIngleCut-What If?

[muggsy]

I like to think I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to instrument design, but single cuts have never appealed to me at all. I remember the first time I saw a Bongo, it looked funny until I started playing it and looked down, but I guess I haven't found the right viewing angle for a single cut. I have no idea about the sonic benefits of the design. The only time I've ever seen them in the flesh was at some long-ago TB get-togethers, and I'm sure I picked one up but probably put it down again pretty quickly. Not to denigrate anybody who likes 'em, but not for me.

 

[Mabongohogany]

I TOTALLY see why a player would dislike a SC; it has no direct visual connection to a Fender-type bass, and is even a greater departure from the norm than the Bongo.
The Bongo I think doesn't "photograph" well; by that I mean without a player attached it may seem odd to some, but when it's being played, the ergonomics are obvious and the bass takes its shape.

The SC originated from the design principle of body-to-neck and some builders take extremes with the body shapes, others not so much.


I'd love to see what the graphic designers at BMW who did the Bongo would come up with as far as a EBMM singlecut Bolt-On body shape. I see beautiful, sleek, lines that retain a MM flavor.

...But then again- I Like Singlecuts!

 

[oli@bass]

The reflex is kind of a single cut away.. In the same way a les Paul is a single cutaway.

This!

 

[tunaman4u2]

I want a Reflex HH with a 1.5" nut Sterling neck, to hell with single cuts! Please?

 

[Mabongohogany]

This!
This what? Yes a Single-Cut in the sense of a tele (ASAT) etc, but NOT an SC in the variant considered the norm for this type of body- As done by "E" and "F" builders in stock models and many other luthiers.

I want a Reflex HH with a 1.5" nut Sterling neck, to hell with single cuts! Please?

Great; start a thread about one. That would be a MM custom-shop build, which they don't do, right?
But IF they decided to build a production SC-
Bet this forum would be flooded with desire to buy one. Take my bet, please!

holy schmokes.

 

[tunaman4u2]

Bet this forum would be flooded with desire to buy one.

Never heard this before

Fun to dream though but in terms of a real potential to make cash aka business sense... this is clearly a no go

 

[stu42]

I TOTALLY see why a player would dislike a SC; it has no direct visual connection to a Fender-type bass, and is even a greater departure from the norm than the Bongo.
The Bongo I think doesn't "photograph" well; by that I mean without a player attached it may seem odd to some, but when it's being played, the ergonomics are obvious and the bass takes its shape.

The SC originated from the design principle of body-to-neck and some builders take extremes with the body shapes, others not so much.
View attachment 19236

I'd love to see what the graphic designers at BMW who did the Bongo would come up with as far as a EBMM singlecut Bolt-On body shape. I see beautiful, sleek, lines that retain a MM flavor.

...But then again- I Like Singlecuts!

I gotta say....I admire your conviction and I think you've done a great job being very patient with everyone and sharing your passion for the "boutique"-style SC design. I don't really see that kind of design fitting in with the regular EBMM line-up because it seems like too much of a departure. That said, since Scott and Dudley came up with that fancy SC guitar and they started that new "Ball Family Custom" brand...maybe this would fit over there.

 

[Mabongohogany]

Never heard this before

Fun to dream though but in terms of a real potential to make cash aka business sense... this is clearly a no go

Glad to hear about your appointment as decison-maker/bean counter at EBMM! must be nice.

Take my bet; of course we (may/probably will) never know, but YOU WOULD be dirt outta cash IF MM intro'd a SC model...- Try Facebook stock; that might work better for you...

 

[Mabongohogany]

I gotta say....I admire your conviction and I think you've done a great job being very patient with everyone and sharing your passion for the "boutique"-style SC design. I don't really see that kind of design fitting in with the regular EBMM line-up because it seems like too much of a departure. That said, since Scott and Dudley came up with that fancy SC guitar and they started that new "Ball Family Custom" brand...maybe this would fit over there.

Why thank you sir. Of course I already HAVE a SC (and a awesome bass it is) but...if the BMW group went to their drawing boards, and did the deed- I certainly would lust about adding another EBMM bass to my collection.

And as I've said- Were it done; you can bet the farm (You do have a farm, don't you?)

...That sales would be off the hook!

Why?

well- let's take an example from real-life!

There's a BIG bass dealer in FLA, who happens to be among other things, a major EBMM "stockist" as they say in England.

They also have a wide selection and commission high-end builders to make basses for their own inventory.

As I mentioned before, there are (2) builders that make an SC as a stock model. Look at what this major FLA retailer features; notice that EVERY one of these SC models-excepting a 6-string- is SOLD.

..And if another were added today, it would be SOLD! very shortly.

Edit:!! Did I mention that they are all 2-3X the cost of what an EBMM model would be?? REALly.
That is a fact, not merely an opinion, to which we're all entitled (I suppose)!

So- IF a MM SC were intro'd it would get double even quadruple the buzz of a certain import-built boutique builder SC that is selling very well too, and is not anywhere near the awesomeness that a SC EBMM bass could/would be.

My story, stickin' to it ...'cause it's a good story and...it's right.
A-Yep!

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

well- let's take an example from real-life!

There's a BIG bass dealer in FLA, who happens to be among other things, a major EBMM "stockist" as they say in England.

They also have a wide selection and commission high-end builders to make basses for their own inventory.

As I mentioned before, there are (2) builders that make an SC as a stock model. Look at what this major FLA retailer features; notice that EVERY one of these SC models-excepting a 6-string- is SOLD.

..And if another were added today, it would be SOLD! very shortly.

Edit:!! Did I mention that they are all 2-3X the cost of what an EBMM model would be?? REALly.
That is a fact, not merely an opinion, to which we're all entitled (I suppose)!

That is a fact, not merely an opinion...

I would have to disagree with your opinion.

The big Florida bass dealer you talk about is somewhat of a specialty shop and does national and international sales. The items listed as sold could be old and when you look at the total volume of what they sell, I think it would probably amount to be a very small percentage of their sales. Those expensive single cuts are a very niche market.

That's not to say that a new single cut model might not be well received, but even with the EBMM's current extensive line-up of basses, my guess is that black, white and natural Stingrays and Sterlings probably make up at least 60% of their bass sales. Guitar Center even stopped stocking the beloved Bongo.

 

[Mabongohogany]

The big Florida bass dealer you talk about is somewhat of a specialty shop and does national and international sales. The items listed as sold could be old and when you look at the total volume of what they sell, I think it would probably amount to be a very small percentage of their sales. Those expensive single cuts are a very niche market.

Reality check here-

As a matter of fact- Before I got my SC not so long ago I talked with that big FLA dealer about one of the builders mentioned. They had none in stock; were awaiting several more.
They had one on order; and it was sold before it was finished, sight unseen, and I was told that if I placed my order now, the build could be expedited to 4 months instead of 6 or 8, because they have priority with the builder of course.

The 2 builders of which I speak sell every SC they build, with a considerable waiting period for those in line for one.
There is a solid market for a high-end SC, and an EBMM would fill a niche absolutely beautifully-and profitably.

As to your premise that the SC's make up a minority of their sales- Of course they do! Their ratio of "standard" basses to SC dictates that! and of course, lest we forget, The SC is not every player's taste, and many players don't know what they are about.

But if you're stating that there is not a market- W-R-O-N-GGG!
The # of builders that do SC's in any shape is vast, and much of their work is gorgeous, expensive , and takes time.

A mass-produced quality SC (such as MM could do) is a no-brainer win.
There's no doubt plenty on the table for the good folks at MM to deal with, they prolly have ideas 2-3 years out, I don't know I've only been there once! (Super-cool people btw.)...they didn't discuss marketing w/me; just showed me around the shop, IIRC, they had donuts.....

However- If i were on the staff, and pushed for the go-ahead of a SC-
And one was built and put on the market.
WIN.
I'd like a new NISSAN JUKE for my company car bonus please! another acquired taste!

 

[tunaman4u2]

This thread is starting to look a lot like this

http://forums.ernieball.com/music-m...ng-order-day-19-music-man-string-spacing.html

No not again!

PLEASE READ THE LAST POST OF THIS THREAD BY BP MaBongoHogany

 

[Mabongohogany]

This thread is starting to look a lot like this

Openening order day!! 19 mm string spacing!

No not again!

PLEASE READ THE LAST POST OF THIS THREAD BY BP MaBongoHogany

Uhh, that's right not again.

Not even on the same page. Please adjust your thinking cap.AND DON'T USE ALL CAPS!!! I can hear you fine.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU! got that?

 

[bassmonkeee]

I think you vastly overestimate the market for a singlecut in the style you are describing. Considering that this is the first time it has come up the entire time I've been here, the market certainly hasn't been clamoring for one. It's as niche a product as a seven or more string bass, really.

You can't point to a single production bass in that style produced by anyone, really. Warwick does them in their custom shop. Foderas, Elricks, etc are all one off custom orders--of course they sell every one they build! They aren't built until they are ordered...

If there was a huge market for this someone would have tapped into it. Period. The only singlecut style that is in production is the one like the reflex, G&L ASAT, and Les Paul bass. Why do you think that is?

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

As to your premise that the SC's make up a minority of their sales- Of course they do! Their ratio of "standard" basses to SC dictates that! and of course, lest we forget, The SC is not every player's taste, and many players don't know what they are about.

But if you're stating that there is not a market- W-R-O-N-GGG!
The # of builders that do SC's in any shape is vast, and much of their work is gorgeous, expensive , and takes time.

A mass-produced quality SC (such as MM could do) is a no-brainer win.

If that's the case, how is it "a no-brainer win" if they already make a minority of the sales?

I think the smaller builders are able to sell single cuts, in part, because of the small quantities they're made in. They fill the niche.

I too, think you vastly overestimate the market for a singlecut in the style you are describing. Again, not to say that there is no market for one, but a limited market that would be tough for significant production to flourish in.

If they sold really well, more people would be making them. Look at how many amp manufacturers have micro heads these days (MarkBass, Genz, GK, etc...). Because they are popular, which ultimately drives the market.

 

[Mabongohogany]

I think you vastly overestimate the market for a singlecut in the style you are describing. Considering that this is the first time it has come up the entire time I've been here, the market certainly hasn't been clamoring for one. It's as niche a product as a seven or more string bass, really.

I don't think I "Vastly" overestimate the market. Part of a forward sales process is developing a product that stimulates or creates an existing or a new market- Take the Bongo e.g.
(A part of) the market IS clamoring, look at the buzz with the Brubaker import SC, whose sales are doing pretty well from what they told me at NAMM.

You can't point to a single production bass in that style produced by anyone, really. Warwick does them in their custom shop. Foderas, Elricks, etc are all one off custom orders--of course they sell every one they build! They aren't built until they are ordered..

Benavente did a b/o production model GC sold them and they were very nice basses. He could not meet the production requirements and maintain a good profit-margin, he's a one-man shop. I again point to Brubaker Brute SC
The Warwick SC is a stock model, not custom shop.
Foderas and Elricks are built NOT just per order, but as stock, and are grabbed up as soon as available by both their Dealers and the players.

If there was a huge market for this someone would have tapped into it. Period. The only singlecut style that is in production is the one like the reflex, G&L ASAT, and Les Paul bass. Why do you think that is?

Once again- The ASAT (I LOVE mine) etc are not true full SC models in the nature described.
No one claimed a "huge" market- A sufficient market certainly is enough to justify the large numbers of luthiers that offer SC basses I can think of twenty or more off-hand. EDIT-Make that 50 or more builders off-hand.


I too, think you vastly overestimate the market for a singlecut in the style you are describing. Again, not to say that there is no market for one, but a limited market that would be tough for significant production to flourish in.

And I too repeat: I can list MANY builders who are busy making SC basses. I've talked with at least 6 of them before I found my incredible already-built SC! They all had long waiting lists- for SC basses.



If they sold really well, more people would be making them. Look at how many amp manufacturers have micro heads these days (MarkBass, Genz, GK, etc...). Because they are popular, which ultimately drives the market.


Errrr. No...Because they are light and powerful and have state-of-the art SMPS ,etc technology. What that has to do with a SC bass design.......
"More people" don't make them because the true SC build process is not conducive to large-scale mass production builders like you know who (Rhymes with "Bender" or "Jimenez"...

The premise of my thread:
A unique large/small builder like EBMM- USA-made, high-quality fit/finish, and astounding electronics- Has also been a balls-out forward-charging not afraid to innovate company.
Currently, the GC- Formerly controversy-inducing shapes like Big Al and "gasp" Bongo- still derided by some to this day!!

Now- to those who think that the SC build is fugly- Whateva.
To those who think there's no real market- I think you got it wrong.

I guess that my main premise was and still totally IS- If (maybe in my dreams who knows?) EBMM proto'd THEIR version of a bolt-on SC, with what that super-hip BMW design crew could put on paper-
and what the luthiers at MM could build up in the shop.
WOW.
Would there BE a market, and I will bet my Sister's Farm (She has one) that MOST of the posters on this Forum and in this thread would FOAM over getting one.
Or not. Who cares?

Because for me: I LOVE my SC; always have loved the shape, style, and inherent tone. Mine sings deep-
Could be the woods, could be the pups, but SC's are the choice of many masters inc. Anthony Jackson, Matt Garrison, Bill "Buddha" Dickens, etc etc because they groove, and the style is right (If you like that sorta bee-yoo-tiful thing.)
Most of the SC's are ERB's not mine- I was LUCKY to find such an awesome 4-string SC.
Love love it.

And I love the MM build; a bassist would be outta their head not to. Amazing that they offer what they do at those price-points.

Which is why I hope they would think about putting an EBMM-SC (nice name!) in the mix.

It would sell. BIG.BIG. Most SC's start at around 4K;I think EBMM could do a NICE one for about 2.5

I'm taking ALL bets.

 

[bassmonkeee]

Again--has anyone before you ever said, "Man--I wish they would make a single cut Musicman?" And, yet you seem to think that "MOST" of the forumites would want one? What kind of shoes do you need to make a leap of logic like this?

So, what's a sufficient market to justify the R&D? You're probably talking $10k-$20k in prototypes and design. BP's already said that the Gamechanger won't make a profit in his lifetime. Who knows how long it would take to justify a SC that one person is asking for. They'd be better off adding 19mm spacing. Seriously.

Yeah, lots of small builders make singlecuts. And, each of them sell a handful every year. What does that have to do with anything? Conklin has made a name for themselves with extending range basses as have lots of other builders. Does this mean Musicman would make a killing selling 9 string basses? That there are dozens of different singlecut models available to choose from as it is (Personally, the only ones I like are the Anthony Jackson Presentation Fodera and one of the Benevente models), how can you possibly think that "being a singlecut" is the only criteria needed to corner the market?

How about the coffee table wood options that every single one of those small builders offers? Or, the option to use whatever pickup/preamp/string spacing/fretboard wood/etc? Does EB need to offer all of those, too?

You can bet your sister's farm all you want--a single singlecut body style available in 4-5 string models (6 if John Myung wants one, I guess) with a limited pickup config option, no string spacing options, and a limited color palette is a non-starter. Certainly not for what it would cost to R&D the thing and make prototypes.

 

[stingray96191]

I've said it before. The Reflex is a single cut style guitar/bass Guitar.
Erin

 

[bassmonkeee]

It's been said multiple times in the thread.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

So do you love the single cut design just because of that feature or is it the bass overall? It does have a certain aesthetic, but there are many more elements to making a nice instrument that it's interesting that you are focusing on that particular design feature.

Single cut (or not) wouldn't be a deciding factor for me if I were to purchase a new (or used) instrument. In fact, it's not a feature I really considered before and now that I think about it, I probably prefer the look of a double cutaway design. I know I prefer a bolt on to neck through or set necks.