A bad dealer? Here's the scenario.....

[Astrofreq]

So, I found a NEW old stock amber Axis Hardtail at a MM dealer. Apparently the guitar has been at this location for over a decade. The dealer shall go nameless for the time being. The store is selling it for $1630.

I asked them "Wasn't the list price $1650?"

He replies, "No, the list price on that guitar is $2400. We are taking 30% off the price."

Now, I KNOW the list price wasn't even close to $2400. I have the serial number of the guitar and will be calling MM on Monday to verify the date of manufacture. Also, to figure out the actual list price. Another forumite told me it was indeed $1650. I simply want to verify that as well.

My question is.... is it against EB rules as a dealer to lie about the list price? I don't want to accuse them of lying yet, but it sure feels like they are stretching the truth about the list price. If that is against the rules, it seems really skeezy. It sucks because I WANT the guitar, but I don't want to pay an insanely jacked up price.

Thoughts?

 

[ozzyrules]

I've bought 2 NOS guitars in the last 6 months from that company that sells a lot of Balls. I'm highly disappointed that these guitars were sold as "new". They were in "used" condition. I would have been much better off buying a used guitar from a forumite. That being said, unless that Axis has sat in a case, untouched, I wouldn't pay any more than a "used" ebay price for it. If they're jacking" up the price and not being honest, shame on them. Welcome to the world of retail !! Good luck, my friend.

 

[dannymusic]

but,

If from a MM dealer, and new, it has the warantee.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Thoughts?

They haven't been able to sell that guitar in a decade. They are not being straight with you - at all - regarding the list price. If it was me, I'd make an offer at what would have been reasonable at the time that guitar was new. If they don't take your offer, I'd tell them to pound sand with any counter offer and wait for another to cross your path someday. YMMV.

 

[Jack FFR1846]

You are always free to make whatever offer you want. They are then free to accept, reject or counteroffer.

Offer them what you think it's worth to you. If they say no, give them your number so they can call. Or wait another 10 years and check with them again.

 

[dibart77]

Here's my POV (first paragraph sounds like it's against the grain of most posts so far, but hear me out):

It's not unreasonable for a retailer to say, "We sell new (not previously owned) Axis's for 30% off list. Current 2012 list is $2400. So the retail price for a new (not previously owned) Axis is $1680."

NOW, having said that, if the Axis was actually from 10 years ago and was indeed shipped to that dealer 10 years ago (as confirmed by EBMM CS) and the list price 10 years ago was $1650... Then you know the dealer paid EBMM about $825 for the guitar, as GENERALLY the music instrument business dealer price is 50% off list.

I would say to the dealer, "I understand that you sell new Axis's for 30% off list. But the fact is, when you bought this Axis on XX/YY/2002 (date that CS gives you), list was $1650 at the time and you outlaid $825 to EBMM based on that list price, not the current list price. So you have around $825 into this guitar. And it's been sitting in your shop getting played and touched and whatnot for 10 years. I'll give you $1125. That means you still make $300 bucks and you're selling it to me for a $30 less than 30% off the original list price to compensate for the guitar getting handled and messed with for 10 years."

That's what I would do, and I bet it'll work! Good luck!

P.S. Kudos to you for not naming the dealer. That would put EBMM in an awkward position.

​

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

Let's look at this pretending the item is something different:

-------
If you were a gold dealer and bought an ounce of gold back in the 1980s and tucked it away then finally decide to sell it in 2012 at a profit does the original price you paid factor into the amount you receive for the ounce when you go to sell it? No, current market value dictates the current selling price, not the price of gold back in 1980. If you were to sell the gold at a minimal profit based off of 1980 values then you are either an overly nice guy, currently under pressure to sell, or not too business savvy.
---------


Back to guitars, assuming the description "NOS" mean new old stock that has not been shopworn, and that the guitar is being sold/promoted as "new" and not "1995 production":

"Original list price" matters most when the model or color has been discontinued. If the guitar store is selling the guitar as "new" and you could go to a different EB dealer and order that same guitar as "new" then pricing has to be based off of current list price. Why? That's what the EB dealer agreement says. If you don't go this route there would be a skewed price on in-stock instruments between different dealers which would lead to tons of complaints because of web pricing, advertising blitzes, etc. The US dealer agreement with EB doesn't permit dealers to advertise the guitar at more than 30% off current list price.

Imagine a dozen dealers each bought a dozen Trans Red Axis guitars back in the 2005 (total of 144) and put them in a vault for 8 years. 2012 rolls around and those same dealers all decide it is time for the guitars to go, and they all put them up for sale on the web based on old pricing. Customers looking for the best deals out there rejoice at saving $4-500 while all the other EB dealers revolt and complain to EB that there are over 100 new guitars being advertised far below current MAP.


Another question to ask yourself is that if the dealer has in fact kept the guitar in pristine condition then why shouldn't they be able to sell their investment at 30% off of current list price? After all, dealers purchase these guitars as investments to sell to the public. Usually/hopefully they are short-term investments but when you have a non-perishable product that has been around for years and years you want to get as much as possible for it. After all, it has been paid for and money has been spent to store and maintain it.


Just to look at it a few different ways....

 

[DrKev]

Thanks for that, Pete! very informative! Not often we get to use the words "thought provoking" on a guitar forum.

Honestly, I'd just try to haggle a price. My thinking - they've had it there for ten years and, I can only presume, have not been able to sell it for whatever reason. Mentally at least, they've written off the cost of that guitar years ago. I'm offering to free up that stock space for them now, and give them cash. I'm quite sure they'd accept a reasonable price.

So, if you saw this guitar on ebay, how much would you be prepared to bid? That's your number. If they won't accept that offer, you've lost nothing and they still have an unsold guitar.

 

[ozzyrules]

This is not that complicated, guys. Ask yourself the most logical question: Why has this guitar not sold in 10 years? Danny music makes a good point. If it's NOS, it has an EBMM warranty. I had to use that warranty on one of my NOS'. 10 years of being handled/mishandled by thousands of customers puts it in the "used" category, in my past experience.

 

[Big Poppa]

wow...lots of thoughts. One of the hardest warranty pills to swallow is the shop beater that has been played by everyone on earth and then gets sold as new and the buyer sends it to us expecting us to fix the shopworn part. They get all upset when we explain that the warranty is against defects in workmanship or materials. CLEARLY not shopworn nos. What happens is that most times we do and we take it in the shorts...the customer expects us to and really never fully appreciates the fact that they took advantage of us. DO the math...back up my selling price by ten years thats what I got for it and now I have to fix it at todays rates and costs.

Here is the real ticket....This dealer is practicing free enterprise. He has a price....he owns it. You don't like his price...the rest is semantics. If you can make a deal winner winner chicken dinner fo not there are more amber axis' out there.

 

[Astrofreq]

Thanks BP. I figured about the same. If I can make a deal, great. If I don't like how they do business, then I can shop elsewhere.

It ain't like hardtail axis' are hard to find or anything. LOL

 

[ozzyrules]

Thanks BP. Lot of differences of opinion and insight. I guess we should consider all variables. Thanks to all for the education.

 

[Stratty316]

Thanks BP. I figured about the same. If I can make a deal, great. If I don't like how they do business, then I can shop elsewhere.

It ain't like hardtail axis' are hard to find or anything. LOL

The easiest way to resolve this would be for BP and Co to make a run of Hard Tail Axis Tributes...

 

[ozzyrules]

The easiest way to resolve this would be for BP and Co to make a run of Hard Tail Axis Tributes...

Now we're talkin!!!!! I'll take a Pink, please.

 

[TSHOW]

I agree with you and Ozzy on that thought.....!!!

 

[straycat113]

I think everyone has a valid point in the direction they are coming from. I would not pay today's price for a 10 year old guitar and my thinking is the same as Jeff's on that one. As a dealer Pete is also on target but keeping it real I believe Pete would of blown the price out a few years ago and made someone a good deal to clear room. Sterling has a justified point but to be fair a lot of guys probably would not know the guitar was 10 years old and would not understand the company is taking the hit, as they are thinking they bought this years model. No one is wrong or right as this is more a neutral subject that can go either way. Also the vast majority are not savvy guys that hang on the forum and pretty much know the ins and outs.

Norrin the best you can do is tell the guy the guitar is 10 years old make him an offer and if he accepts take the guitar and if not move on. I do not think the guy is doing anything wrong that he should be named and blown up for trying to get as much as he can for it. The little guys have to work much harder to make a sale than the big boys, but I think if you go in with the right attitude and not the (I GOT YA) you will leave with it.

 

[ozzyrules]

I think everyone has a valid point in the direction they are coming from. I would not pay today's price for a 10 year old guitar and my thinking is the same as Jeff's on that one. As a dealer Pete is also on target but keeping it real I believe Pete would of blown the price out a few years ago and made someone a good deal to clear room. Sterling has a justified point but to be fair a lot of guys probably would not know the guitar was 10 years old and would not understand the company is taking the hit, as they are thinking they bought this years model. No one is wrong or right as this is more a neutral subject that can go either way. Also the vast majority are not savvy guys that hang on the forum and pretty much know the ins and outs.

Norrin the best you can do is tell the guy the guitar is 10 years old make him an offer and if he accepts take the guitar and if not move on. I do not think the guy is doing anything wrong that he should be named and blown up for trying to get as much as he can for it. The little guys have to work much harder to make a sale than the big boys, but I think if you go in with the right attitude and not the (I GOT YA) you will leave with it.

Good call, my brutha.

 

[yan12]

As a collector of other things, I totally disagree. I constantly pay premiums for older well made items. Two things to consider.
1. He who has the gold makes the rules.
2. "I would not pay today's price for a 10 year old guitar and my thinking is the same as Jeff's on that one." What about a 10yr old Universe? Or LP? Or whatever? You always pay for craftsmanship regardless of age. That was a premium guitar then, and every bit as good as one made now...perhaps even better. If it was something I really wanted, and I thought it was somewhat rare, I would not quibble much. Of course the condition will dictate the price, but in the end it is worth what someone will pay for it. Once again, there is no right or wrong answer here. Everyone has made valid points. I just look at it from the collectors point of view.

 

[Astrofreq]

1. He who has the gold makes the rules.

Absolutely. Fo' sho'!

 

[tommydude]

I like the counter-offer approach. He may take your offer.

If not, more guitars will come along