rmh925
Well-known member
I'll take an order of Flame or Quilt to go please
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- Thread starter SteveB
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SteveB
Well-known member
I think that the thing we're learning here is that a lot of us who have bought new EBMM guitars have had to pre-order what we wanted from a local dealer due to lack of stock or lack of preferred options.
For these BFR's, and possibly for all future EBMM guitars offered with figured tops, those who want a particular kind of figuring will have to purchase from inventory somewhere. Those who aren't particular about the type of top can still pre-order.
Everyone agree this is a fair summation?
While I've been interested in seeing if BFR 'choice of top' could become a reality, I certainly didn't want to see the conversation go sour. I initially just wanted a yes/no answer as to whether it could be an option. I would have accepted a 'no' answer with no hard feelings or commentary and moved on. But instead, BP suggested a poll so I put a little something together.
I think I'll wait another day or two and then summarize the poll results. Until then, let's keep things constructive.
For these BFR's, and possibly for all future EBMM guitars offered with figured tops, those who want a particular kind of figuring will have to purchase from inventory somewhere. Those who aren't particular about the type of top can still pre-order.
Everyone agree this is a fair summation?
While I've been interested in seeing if BFR 'choice of top' could become a reality, I certainly didn't want to see the conversation go sour. I initially just wanted a yes/no answer as to whether it could be an option. I would have accepted a 'no' answer with no hard feelings or commentary and moved on. But instead, BP suggested a poll so I put a little something together.
I think I'll wait another day or two and then summarize the poll results. Until then, let's keep things constructive.
Dizzy
Well-known member
jeffrey
Well-known member
My "local dealer" is Pete because the ONLY EBMM dealers anywhere within a few hours of Austin/San Antonio (2, I think and only 1 carries guitars?) are horrible.
The one in San Antonio is run by the biggest bunch of arrogant price-gouging pricks I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.
So I guess you could say I won't be giving them any business.
SteveB
Well-known member
Jeffrey,
My local dealer (about a 30 minute drive) carries MM Basses all the time, but few guitars. Lately they've had a record number of EBMM guitars in there.. 2 Axis Super Sports, a SUB1, and a JP6. I doubt they'll get any BFR guitars in for inventory.
I have two GC's in the area.. each of which is about a 40 minute drive. Neither stocks EBMM guitars, but they do have basses.
It looks like Pete might be my "local dealer" too..
My local dealer (about a 30 minute drive) carries MM Basses all the time, but few guitars. Lately they've had a record number of EBMM guitars in there.. 2 Axis Super Sports, a SUB1, and a JP6. I doubt they'll get any BFR guitars in for inventory.
I have two GC's in the area.. each of which is about a 40 minute drive. Neither stocks EBMM guitars, but they do have basses.
It looks like Pete might be my "local dealer" too..
jeffrey
Well-known member
Yeah, the GC is the only EB dealer in Austin that actually ever has any guitars, and it's usually very few not in the best of shape.
If I was sure I could get a dealership I'd seriously consider opening my own store.
I'd rather do that than what I do now, I hate my job.
If I was sure I could get a dealership I'd seriously consider opening my own store.
I'd rather do that than what I do now, I hate my job.
phatduckk
Well-known member
ok just for grims i checked out some other guitar prices on the internets. a 10 top guitar w/ 24 frets WITHOUT peizo can go for as much as ~$4k (not claiming this is average price or "normal" street price). there's some used stuff in the ~$2,x00 range.
now that's a lot of money. the BFR JPs are 10 tops and are fully loaded w/ a peizo and MSRP is ~$4k. We all know that you dont usually pay full MSRP for a guitar.
so with a guitar comprable to an F1 JP you pay over $1k more and dont get the peizo. I think this is a fair price point - but thats me.
here's my take as far as the choice of top is concerned: it looks like MM is gonna do what they originally planned and not offer the choice based on how that would reflect upon the price. agree w/ this or not its getting to the dead horse phase. i doubt dargin and bp are lying about the availability of wood... why would they lie? just to upset some folk? i doubt that - cuz you know the upset folks are gonna be the most vocal.
everyone is 100% entitled to their preference and the option to flip a coin on the top or not - its your $ and you get to decide how/when to spend it. if you dont wanna flip a coin thats cool - just wait for stock to show up, if youre game, then call pete now.
and dont forget the spirit of the BFR... especially folks that have read baout it here or heard about em in Dallas. The goal was to offer artist grade instruments to the public AS MATERIALS ALLOW. The F1 and BFR Luke, to me, are special-ish as theyre not a "limited to x peices" kind of run. BP has always said (and im making this up as an example) "if we get enough blanks of RW we'll make as many BFR Bongos w/ RW necks as the supply we got a hold of will allow". (again, i made up that quote as an example).
so dont forget the spirit of the BFR and that the Luke and F1 are a bit special in a certain regard.
-Arin
now that's a lot of money. the BFR JPs are 10 tops and are fully loaded w/ a peizo and MSRP is ~$4k. We all know that you dont usually pay full MSRP for a guitar.
so with a guitar comprable to an F1 JP you pay over $1k more and dont get the peizo. I think this is a fair price point - but thats me.
here's my take as far as the choice of top is concerned: it looks like MM is gonna do what they originally planned and not offer the choice based on how that would reflect upon the price. agree w/ this or not its getting to the dead horse phase. i doubt dargin and bp are lying about the availability of wood... why would they lie? just to upset some folk? i doubt that - cuz you know the upset folks are gonna be the most vocal.
everyone is 100% entitled to their preference and the option to flip a coin on the top or not - its your $ and you get to decide how/when to spend it. if you dont wanna flip a coin thats cool - just wait for stock to show up, if youre game, then call pete now.
and dont forget the spirit of the BFR... especially folks that have read baout it here or heard about em in Dallas. The goal was to offer artist grade instruments to the public AS MATERIALS ALLOW. The F1 and BFR Luke, to me, are special-ish as theyre not a "limited to x peices" kind of run. BP has always said (and im making this up as an example) "if we get enough blanks of RW we'll make as many BFR Bongos w/ RW necks as the supply we got a hold of will allow". (again, i made up that quote as an example).
so dont forget the spirit of the BFR and that the Luke and F1 are a bit special in a certain regard.
-Arin
phatduckk
Well-known member
It looks like Pete might be my "local dealer" too..
me too. due 2 the internets us consumer types have a wider selection of inventory to choose from and have been given the opportunity to find retailers that have the attitude/values, stock and pricing that works for us.
robelinda2
Well-known member
you guys are passionate eh! these BFR's are emotional guitars!
Rossie
Well-known member
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Don't get Jeffrey wrong, it's just that a figured top JP has been a dream of many, and when it's available, and at that kind of price, we expect to at least have a choice of a quilted or flamed top. Not worryingly anticipating for 6 months about which top that my US$4k guitar would have.
It will be cool if BP decides that there will be a "one type only" run on certain models, it will at least give us buyers a good idea of what we will be getting, like what Dizzy and Jeffrey said.
It will be cool if BP decides that there will be a "one type only" run on certain models, it will at least give us buyers a good idea of what we will be getting, like what Dizzy and Jeffrey said.
robelinda2
Well-known member
well now that the BFR AL is now confirmed for later in the year, i'll take whatever top i can get, I can say that i really dont care about flame or quilt. Makes it easier to order- one less option to procrastinate about!
ALBERT! ALBERT!
ALBERT! ALBERT!
Big Poppa
Well-known member
My last attempt at explaning this.
Rossie......the public wants both. Period. All polls show that. You, Dizzy and Jeffrey suggest that we shouldnt do that because it makes it had for you to order one.
I say make both and let the dealer do his job and give the players both choices. The dealer gets a big margin to Stock, service and promote our guitars. Most dealers are lucky in that you are bringing exactly what you want and they place a phone call and hand you a box when it comes in
The threads are that we are trying to be rigid when we are doing what we are doing to assure that the most possible Knuckleheads will be able to get the figured wood of choice.
Here is why we cant do what you want us to do....
We break our production in to weekly "buckets". We have to plan our purchasing well in advance with very little cushion as far as inventory goes. If March 23rd's bucket calls for flame BFR's and we only have quilt we have nothing to make.
The way we are able to offer over 90K combinatons is our ability to forecast what we will be able to make. With normal woods and opaque finishes it works great, with specialty wood it really hurts us. Case in point we didnt make all of the 30th StingRays that were ordered due to the Mahog not passing the weight test, and we are still making 20th silo orders from last year because when their bucket came around there wasnt enough of the right figured wood available because we gave them the choice of Quilt or flame. This backs up everything and affects the number of instruments we can produce which translates into production delays for those patiently waiting.
I could do something similar to what you want me to do with wood and say that BFR's are not custom orderable. But that hurts the people that really have no preference as they like 10 tops either way.
If you are dead set on a certain wood please dont order one. Wait for Pete or uyour dealer to get one in that you like.
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Krell
Well-known member
While the flexibility is there to make different combinations, that first paragraph I quoted is an incredibly inefficient way of manufacturing. I realize these aren't cell phones being mass produced however. Being able to switch to a different product is a manufacturer's best friend. Look at the automotive industry with the ability to change the production line from one car to another. There's got to be a better way that would allow you to make more products and reduce your costs thanks to some economies of scale.
phatduckk
Well-known member
there's that whole "dont post street prices" rule 'round these parts... but more important is the unwritten rule which goes something like "dont tell pops how to run his shop"
honestly guys, c'mon.
I've waited years for the possibility of a maple topped Luke to become a reality, and it's finally here. But I just can't put in an order I'm afraid. We've discussed the export pricing situation elsewhere and that's been laid to rest so I won't drone on about it. However, the two other points that stop me ordering at least the Luke (I was initially looking to possibly spend the £4k ish on both a Luke and F1, now only one guitar can be bought at that price and it was always going to be a Luke) are the lack of piezo, which I really do think is an oversite given that the EBMM system has such a huge reputation, and that it is standard on the F1 for not far off the same price over here, but also the lack of top choice.
Now, I've read everything BP has posted, and I really do understand the production problems it would, and has in the past, created. But I really, really don't like flame. I adore quilt tops on the other hand. The reason I paid £350 upgrade to the premium top on my Axis was to make sure I got a quilt, nothing to do with the quality. Now that guitar cost me only 38% the cost of a BFR Luke despite all it's extras, so I really do feel averse to ordering a guitar where I can't choose this time for a considerable increase in cost.
I'll be honest, much as I love your instruments, as long as this random alocation of tops remains, I won't be ordering anything with a figured wood top! If I had ordered a £4k BFR Luke to find I got a flame top, I'd be completely gutted and probably would have rejected it. I know it creates major headaches, but I really do think this is a decision that will probably have to be reversed in time. Not necessarily on the BFRs, as they are limited runs, but certainly on the mainstream models. Too many people want the choice and I can see that, even in this rarified atmosphere of EBMM fans, there are people already discontented about the situation.
Headaches they may be, but if some of us aren't happy, the customer in the street is going to be more likely to just place an order with another maker, as they won't have the enthusiasm and ties that the fans have.
As for finding stock at dealers. Not in the UK I'm afraid. It's hard enough to find regular models to be honest.
Now, I've read everything BP has posted, and I really do understand the production problems it would, and has in the past, created. But I really, really don't like flame. I adore quilt tops on the other hand. The reason I paid £350 upgrade to the premium top on my Axis was to make sure I got a quilt, nothing to do with the quality. Now that guitar cost me only 38% the cost of a BFR Luke despite all it's extras, so I really do feel averse to ordering a guitar where I can't choose this time for a considerable increase in cost.
I'll be honest, much as I love your instruments, as long as this random alocation of tops remains, I won't be ordering anything with a figured wood top! If I had ordered a £4k BFR Luke to find I got a flame top, I'd be completely gutted and probably would have rejected it. I know it creates major headaches, but I really do think this is a decision that will probably have to be reversed in time. Not necessarily on the BFRs, as they are limited runs, but certainly on the mainstream models. Too many people want the choice and I can see that, even in this rarified atmosphere of EBMM fans, there are people already discontented about the situation.
Headaches they may be, but if some of us aren't happy, the customer in the street is going to be more likely to just place an order with another maker, as they won't have the enthusiasm and ties that the fans have.
As for finding stock at dealers. Not in the UK I'm afraid. It's hard enough to find regular models to be honest.
Dargin
Ernie Ball Customer Service
You guys may want to reserve judgement on these guitars until you get one in your hands and play one! Some of you guys say you are cancelling orders.....not one dealer/distributor has cancelled a BFR order. I would bet that if you cancelled your special order the dealer would still keep it in the pipeline.
jeffrey
Well-known member
Oh trust me, I still want two.
I just can't pay that much money for two guitars and get a random top.
I'll just have to wait and see what Pete ends up with and hope funds allow I guess.
I really wanted to pre-order, but oh well....
I just can't pay that much money for two guitars and get a random top.
I'll just have to wait and see what Pete ends up with and hope funds allow I guess.
I really wanted to pre-order, but oh well....
PeteDuBaldo
Well-known member
Jeffrey, you'd better hope that they don't sell before they get here - that's what the deposit is supposed to be for
jeffrey
Well-known member
Jeffrey, you'd better hope that they don't sell before they get here - that's what the deposit is supposed to be for
Yeah I know...
Well, there isn't much either of us can do about that I don't think.
I'm supposed to just be happy about it too.
beej
Moderator
I can't believe how quickly this forum goes from "I love MM" to complaints ... seriously guys!
You know they're going to make a top notch product. I don't think all this nagging or telling Sterling & co how to run their shop is going to help in the long run.
There will be dealer stock and there are going to be a ton of these babies on eBay. You'll have to pay more that way but you'll get to pick your top.
You know they're going to make a top notch product. I don't think all this nagging or telling Sterling & co how to run their shop is going to help in the long run.
There will be dealer stock and there are going to be a ton of these babies on eBay. You'll have to pay more that way but you'll get to pick your top.
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