Question Anyone else notice treble loss on volume reduction?

[edhalen]

First, I LOVE my Axis SS. The real deal. It sounds insane, etc. I've already posted about it with pics. The only thing I've noticed is, if I lower the volume more than about 1 on the dial I completely lose the wonderful chimey treble in all positions. Most noticable in positions 2 and 4, but it happens in all other switch positions as well. The tone control is all the way up. Has anyone out there noticed this? Could it be a bad volume pot after all these years (2007 model)? Or, is this why folks use a pot along with a treble bleed circuit? Thanks in advance.

Steve

 

[beej]

Yep- this is exactly why people use treble bleeds. The high end loss is also made worse by higher cable capacitance, hence why it doesn't happen as much with lower-cap cable, or buffered output.

Set yourself up with a decent treble bleed and you'll be good. Personally I use a 680pf capacitor and 150k ohm resistor in parallel, but there are a zillion takes on this. (Dr Kev has a good writeup on this which I'm sure he'll provide.)

 

[DrKev]

I heard somebody call my name??

I'm currently using the DiMarzio recommended value of 560pF with a 220kΩ (I think) parallel resistor.

I'm made a list of manufacturer's recommended values for cap and resistor, along with some discussions. You'll find it all here...

Treble Bleed Mod Round-up – DrKevGuitar.com

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I heard somebody call my name??

I'm currently using the DiMarzio recommended value of 560pF with a 220kΩ (I think) parallel resistor.

I'm made a list of manufacturer's recommended values for cap and resistor, along with some discussions. You'll find it all here...

Treble Bleed Mod Round-up – DrKevGuitar.com

Suhr has had a slight tweak to theirs for quite some time: A 120 k resistor in series with the other resistor and cap. It's my favourite of all the ones I've tried, it's the most natural sounding one with the smoothest taper IMHO.

 

[DrKev]

Fender does something similar. Thanks for the heads up! I’ll add it to my list.

 

[Rbg]

Without knowing the schematics of the L3/4 preamps, I would assume you don’t need treble boost there, right?

 

[DrKev]

Yes. Treble bleed is not required if there is a preamp or buffer as the guitar no longer sees the capacitance of the cable (which is responsible for the treble loss). Of course the cable capacitance is also part of the guitar tone, which is why wireless units and the EBMM preamps/buffer often include a simulated cable capacitance. Without it, the guitar can sound too bright or thin. Try plugging into with a really, really short cable. Compare the sound to a long cable. With a preamp or buffer, changing the cable makes no difference, you always get the same tone. With a purely passive circuit, cables can make an audible difference.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Yes. Treble bleed is not required if there is a preamp or buffer as the guitar no longer sees the capacitance of the cable (which is responsible for the treble loss). Of course the cable capacitance is also part of the guitar tone, which is why wireless units and the EBMM preamps/buffer often include a simulated cable capacitance. Without it, the guitar can sound too bright or thin. Try plugging into with a really, really short cable. Compare the sound to a long cable. With a preamp or buffer, changing the cable makes no difference, you always get the same tone. With a purely passive circuit, cables can make an audible difference.

+1

People underestimate how much cables impact your tone. The difference can be bigger than swapping pickups. Going from something quite dark like Mogami 2524 to a low capacitance cable (or vice versa), is not a subtle difference.

 

[DrKev]

+1

People underestimate how much cables impact your tone. The difference can be bigger than swapping pickups. Going from something quite dark like Mogami 2524 to a low capacitance cable (or vice versa), is not a subtle difference.

Ernie Ball cables are high capacitance too. And that's not a good or bad thing, it's just an ingredient of a recipe and you can have a little or a lot. I use 10ft EB cables at home and I have 10ft Planet Waves (low capacitance) if I want that extra high treble. I have long low capacitance cables if I need the length but want similar tone as I get with the EB cables. How I set the treble and mids on my amp and pedals will be affected by my cable choice and so I get slightly different results. Like, I said, it's an ingredient in a recipe. Add more salt, and maybe you will also add more sugar, or more chili, less soy sauce. It's all good, it justs a choice we make. That is UNTIL we have a particular situation. e.g. Steve Vai or Joe Bonamassa on stage? 40ft cable run! Yes, they both choose lower capacitance cables but the long length means high total capacitance, it won't be a bright tone hitting the amp or pedalboard. Hig capacitance short cables can get you that tone in your living room without 40ft of unnecessary coffe spiller on the floor.

Rant: I wish companies that sell cables would tell us the capacitance. Many don't. The marketing blurb of "3-Dimensional mids and rich organic bass notes and increased dynamics" is absolute nonsense, it's all a LIE. Cables can only affect one thing - high frequencies, and it's cable capacitance that does that. And ALL cables transmit equally well at lower frequencies and they all transmit indentically when driven by a buffer or preamp.

Handling noise and shielding DO differ between cables, but in terms of transmission of sound capacitance is all we care about.

 

[edhalen]

Wow. I've probably learned more in this thread than any other I've seen around here. Ever. So glad I asked the question. I have unnecessarily long cables both to and from my pedalboard. I've never noticed treble loss until playing my Axis SS. I did change to a 10ft. cable straight into my amp (rather than the 18ft. EB cables to and from my pedal board) and there was a definitive difference in treble. Makes a LOT more sense now. Thanks Doc!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Ernie Ball cables are high capacitance too. And that's not a good or bad thing, it's just an ingredient of a recipe and you can have a little or a lot. I use 10ft EB cables at home and I have 10ft Planet Waves (low capacitance) if I want that extra high treble. I have long low capacitance cables if I need the length but want similar tone as I get with the EB cables. How I set the treble and mids on my amp and pedals will be affected by my cable choice and so I get slightly different results. Like, I said, it's an ingredient in a recipe. Add more salt, and maybe you will also add more sugar, or more chili, less soy sauce. It's all good, it justs a choice we make. That is UNTIL we have a particular situation. e.g. Steve Vai or Joe Bonamassa on stage? 40ft cable run! Yes, they both choose lower capacitance cables but the long length means high total capacitance, it won't be a bright tone hitting the amp or pedalboard. Hig capacitance short cables can get you that tone in your living room without 40ft of unnecessary coffe spiller on the floor.

Rant: I wish companies that sell cables would tell us the capacitance. Many don't. The marketing blurb of "3-Dimensional mids and rich organic bass notes and increased dynamics" is absolute nonsense, it's all a LIE. Cables can only affect one thing - high frequencies, and it's cable capacitance that does that. And ALL cables transmit equally well at lower frequencies and they all transmit indentically when driven by a buffer or preamp.

Handling noise and shielding DO differ between cables, but in terms of transmission of sound capacitance is all we care about.

I agree, it's an important part of the equation. I assumes many have heard the story about SRV only using the "cheap" cables because he wanted the extra high end roll off.

Buying pre-made cables without any technical info is a crap shoot. Sticking to cables were you can get the relevant info is highly recommended. Stuff like Mogami, Sommer, Cordial, etc. Otherwise, it's the equivalent to buying pickups without any technical info about magnet strength, output in millivolt, resonance peak, inductance etc. Oh wait, we DO do that

 

[headcrash]

I use low capacitance cables, no longer than 6m.
Also I desoldered the tone pot (don't use it).
In fact,with this, rolling back volume kinda thins out the sound and also let's more of chimey top "go through" (speaking of the bridge pickup here...). It's something I LOVE about the DiMarzio EVH/Custom pickups. It's something I hear in Adam Jones' (of Tool) tone, for clean parts, that is.

So, them being high impedance pickups, and using long cables and/or high capacitance cables will cause treble loss.

 

[edhalen]

I installed a treble bleed and that helped a lot.