Chasing tone...as usual

[veniculum]

Hey guys...about 2 weeks ago, I just picked up a new Axis. I've wanted one of these for some time. I had played one years ago, and loved not only the way it felt and played...but I loved the sound as well.

I have a pretty substantial guitar collection now...at least compared to what I had back in the days when I was gigging...and starving.
Those days, I had one...maybe two quality guitars..and a bunch of crap. I also didn't have any amps worth mentioning. At that time, I really didn't know how to achieve any kind of decent tone. I plugged right into an amp, turned it up to 11, and maybe had a little reverb mixed in. It sounded ok to me then...to my untrained ears (and believe me...I'm not knocking that method now...to those who prefer to plug in and go). That said, I think my tastes these days are a little more complicated...and the beauty of having a lot of different types of guitars is that you get all these different tones before you even start playing with the amp or effects.

These days, I primarily play through one of those little Line 6 Pocket Pods. Surprisingly, they sound phenomenal...provided you know how to use the software and dial in the sound to your liking. My problem, nowadays is that i can't emulate that same sound on an actual rig. I have an idea in my head of what I want..but you know how it is...how do you describe tone?

So I figured I'd come here and hopefully pick some of your brains. Over the last few years, I've been listening to a lot of different players online...and the funny thing is...out of all of them, the guy who has the perfect tone (for me) is that guy Paul...from guitar world...I'm sure there are plenty of guys who make sounds that i would like just as much...problem is, finding them. This guy posts all these video reviews of guitars, and seems to have a standard rig setup to do this testing/review.
Anyway...I figured I'd post one of the reviews (for USA Charvels), and point out the section of the video that I'm trying to emulate...and miserably failing
Unfortunately, I've never been that good at tweaking my amps and effects...and ultimately end up just settling on 'ok'. I currently have one of those Bogner/Line Six Spider Valve 2x12's. I'm running it on the highest gain setting...as far as effects...simple...an EQ, noise gate, and a compressor/sustainer. It sounds ok...but not even close to perfect.

If you don't mind checking out this video....check out minute 3:55. At this point, he's got the sound I've been looking for since I picked up a guitar 25 years ago. To many of you, perhaps this is an easy thing to find...Once again, I'm not gifted in the world of tweaking amps/effects. At the same time...if you were to mic up my pocket pod, this is the sound I'm hearing through my headphones. Too bad it doesn't translate when you plug that thing into an amp.

So tell me...if you had to guess what kind of rig he's using (amps and or effects), what do you thinks he's got on that thing. If he could bottle that sound, I'd go out and buy it tomorrow.

Thanks a bunch guys.

[beej] Edit: removed the embedded charvel vid.

 

[Gio_Force_One]

its really hard to guess what hes using but maybe since an 80s style guitar maybe like a marshall jcm 800 or something similiar.

i would go check out the marshall JVM you will have to work with tweaking it but they do have a great tone once its dialed in.

 

[djlynch]

Hey guys...about 2 weeks ago, I just picked up a new Axis. I've wanted one of these for some time. I had played one years ago, and loved not only the way it felt and played...but I loved the sound as well.

I have a pretty substantial guitar collection now...at least compared to what I had back in the days when I was gigging...and starving.
Those days, I had one...maybe two quality guitars..and a bunch of crap. I also didn't have any amps worth mentioning. At that time, I really didn't know how to achieve any kind of decent tone. I plugged right into an amp, turned it up to 11, and maybe had a little reverb mixed in. It sounded ok to me then...to my untrained ears (and believe me...I'm not knocking that method now...to those who prefer to plug in and go). That said, I think my tastes these days are a little more complicated...and the beauty of having a lot of different types of guitars is that you get all these different tones before you even start playing with the amp or effects.

These days, I primarily play through one of those little Line 6 Pocket Pods. Surprisingly, they sound phenomenal...provided you know how to use the software and dial in the sound to your liking. My problem, nowadays is that i can't emulate that same sound on an actual rig. I have an idea in my head of what I want..but you know how it is...how do you describe tone?

So I figured I'd come here and hopefully pick some of your brains. Over the last few years, I've been listening to a lot of different players online...and the funny thing is...out of all of them, the guy who has the perfect tone (for me) is that guy Paul...from guitar world...I'm sure there are plenty of guys who make sounds that i would like just as much...problem is, finding them. This guy posts all these video reviews of guitars, and seems to have a standard rig setup to do this testing/review.
Anyway...I figured I'd post one of the reviews (for USA Charvels), and point out the section of the video that I'm trying to emulate...and miserably failing
Unfortunately, I've never been that good at tweaking my amps and effects...and ultimately end up just settling on 'ok'. I currently have one of those Bogner/Line Six Spider Valve 2x12's. I'm running it on the highest gain setting...as far as effects...simple...an EQ, noise gate, and a compressor/sustainer. It sounds ok...but not even close to perfect.

If you don't mind checking out this video....check out minute 3:55. At this point, he's got the sound I've been looking for since I picked up a guitar 25 years ago. To many of you, perhaps this is an easy thing to find...Once again, I'm not gifted in the world of tweaking amps/effects. At the same time...if you were to mic up my pocket pod, this is the sound I'm hearing through my headphones. Too bad it doesn't translate when you plug that thing into an amp.

So tell me...if you had to guess what kind of rig he's using (amps and or effects), what do you thinks he's got on that thing. If he could bottle that sound, I'd go out and buy it tomorrow.

Thanks a bunch guys.

YouTube - Charvel San Dimas and So-Cal Guitars

If you like the pocket POD upgrade to maybe the 2.0 or the XT-way better than the pocket POD. Sometimes if you only play your POD through headphones you hands ands ears can get to used to that sort of squishy easy to play tone. One I find that will improve your tone in inexpensive amps is to use two in stereo. Dial in different tones for each one.

 

[peterd79]

If you like the pocket POD upgrade to maybe the 2.0 or the XT-way better than the pocket POD. Sometimes if you only play your POD through headphones you hands ands ears can get to used to that sort of squishy easy to play tone. One I find that will improve your tone in inexpensive amps is to use two in stereo. Dial in different tones for each one.

i ran two small 5watt tube amps in stereo and that changed things up a bit... but honestly i've found that even with the same setup and gear with everything set identical you're not going to "SOUND" like that other player... it's all in the fingers and the way you attack the notes...
just the way it goes brotha...keep pluggin away and you'll get that tone... sometimes it's not about the complexity of the gear but the simplicity and afterall its all music

 

[veniculum]

i ran two small 5watt tube amps in stereo and that changed things up a bit... but honestly i've found that even with the same setup and gear with everything set identical you're not going to "SOUND" like that other player... it's all in the fingers and the way you attack the notes...
just the way it goes brotha...keep pluggin away and you'll get that tone... sometimes it's not about the complexity of the gear but the simplicity and afterall its all music

I totally agree...I won't ever sound like any player except myself. I used that video as sort of a blueprint of the sound I'm going for. I've always heard Marshal JCMs sound great. I believe I even had a loaner years ago...but playing straight through just doesn't work for me. I like a little delay...and even a hint of chorus in my sound. But not much.

Regardless....this guy's sound (and I watch a lot of those Guitar World video reviews)...he just nails it...particularly when he's playing 'metal/hard rock' style guitars...and using his rig to accentuate (if that's an appropriate word )

Anyway..I'd love to hear more replies...maybe I'll see if I can email the guy directly...sometimes these magazine guys publish their email addresses, and even reply at times.

BTW..Pete..what makes the 2.0/XT better? You mean in terms of using it in your rig...or do you mean features and/or tones?
I appreciate the suggestion.

Todd

 

[ScoobySteve]

Axe-FX. It's basically a wonderland that doesn't end.

 

[Slingy]

Plenty of good tones on the spider valve, you already have it just learn to dial it in.

 

[beej]

veniculum- just FYI, I removed the embedded Charvel video. This being the corporate EBMM forum, just one of those things, not putting up videos of competitor's instruments- hope you understand.

That said, to me it sounds squarely in modded Marshall country with lots of low-mid growl. Quite a few amps that can get you there- modded Marshalls (Friedman, etc.), Splawn, Cameron, Bogner, etc. So a very achievable tone.

I'd wager quite a few of the modellers can get close including the Spider Valve.

 

[veniculum]

No problem about the video...I understand. If I can find something similar with a MM guitar, I assume that's ok?

 

[fbecir]

Hello Todd

The sound in the video is for me a classic high gain sound.
In fact, what you are hearing is the result of the combination between guitar / amp / microphone / software (for compiling the video) / youtube degradation (youtube compresses the video) / quality of your speakers.
This process had a lot of compression in the sound. When you play in front of an amp, it's completely different. Besides, if you play in a band your sound will be different.
Thus finding your sound depends really on the context. If you chase this sound for playing at home (thus with a low level), the best thing is to use a low powered high gain amp and a single speaker. After that you have to mess with the EQ : first find the gain level you are comfortable with then remove / add the frequencies.
If you can record your sound it's also a good solution to analyze your solution (when you play you are not fully concentrated on your sound but also on your notes ...)

 

[veniculum]

Here you go....this video works just as well, and he's using MM guitars...so I take it I'm ok with it...(by the way...I know those Sterlings are imports...but they look and sound pretty killer...which I wouldn't normally say about imports

It's basically the same type of tone that I'm hearing in the other video....

I guess my question is, can this sound be achieved by plugging straight to an amp...I've never been able to duplicate it. It sounds to me like, in the least, he's got some delay and some reverb on that...anything else?
No need to post a time stamp in the video....he starts ripping right from the start.

Thanks again for the replies...I appreciate it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROu3T5OVrOc]YouTube - Sterling by Music Man AX20 & AX40 Guitars[/ame]

 

[djlynch]

I am not usually a big fan of these demos but I like this one. Must be the guitars
Actually I am just jealous of him because his job is to demo gear.
You should be able to get some good tones out of that spider valve. Do you have another amp besides the spider valve. If so dial the SV in wet and play stereo with a dry amp. I find that help improve my "home" tones. Gives a bigger sound at low volumes.
You don't need to spend tons of cash to get that sound at home. Good luck

 

[straycat113]

Well on the first piece he is playing which is a mock version of Panama he is going for a VH tone, but I have seen him demo many guitars including the Charvels and I think you are looking for that early 80s superstrat tone from those days. If you would like to know what he is using why dont you send him an email and ask him. You would be amazed at how fast so may guys get back to you and how cool 90% of them are. To be honest I cannot think of someone I emailed in a situation similar to this that never answered me. He probabaly would be happy and flattered to answer any questions.

 

[beej]

No problem about the video...I understand. If I can find something similar with a MM guitar, I assume that's ok?

Definitely. Nice find on the vid ... it does sound great.

 

[tommydude]

I can't see the video from work, but have read through the history....

Straight out of the box sound is hard to find in a new tube amp, unless you start spending a lot of money.

On a budget, the Bogner Line 6 version of amps rock! There are plenty of pre-set tones to listen to + adjust!
I would copy a tone, then modify it.

If you have the money.... AxeFX by Fractal Audio is the ideal situation. Engl Powerball II, Bogner Uberschall and Mojave Blues Saraceno would be where to dump your cash.

 

[nobozos]

The answer I believe you are looking for is CHORUS. You need a MODERATE gain amp with some kind of overdrive pedal in front of it, like a Boss Super Overdrive, or Tube Screamer. Don't use a distortion pedal. Turn your amps gain up to about 75% and turn the level on the overdrive pedal up about two-thirds, and the gain up to taste, but usually around 50%.

Put a Delay in the effects loop, followed by a Chorus pedal. Set the delay for a little slapback, and dial the level no higher than 50% (on a series effect loop). Next, set the rate on the chorus pedal very low, and the EQ at about 2 o'clock, the Depth at about 11 o'clock, and the effect level relatively low. The trick is to set the effect level so that you hear the chorus effect without really hearing it.

Just add a touch of reverb, but not too much.

Anyway, that's my interpretation.

 

[veniculum]

The answer I believe you are looking for is CHORUS. You need a MODERATE gain amp with some kind of overdrive pedal in front of it, like a Boss Super Overdrive, or Tube Screamer. Don't use a distortion pedal. Turn your amps gain up to about 75% and turn the level on the overdrive pedal up about two-thirds, and the gain up to taste, but usually around 50%.

Put a Delay in the effects loop, followed by a Chorus pedal. Set the delay for a little slapback, and dial the level no higher than 50% (on a series effect loop). Next, set the rate on the chorus pedal very low, and the EQ at about 2 o'clock, the Depth at about 11 o'clock, and the effect level relatively low. The trick is to set the effect level so that you hear the chorus effect without really hearing it.

Just add a touch of reverb, but not too much.

Anyway, that's my interpretation.

I really appreciate the comments...and yes...I'm definitely going for an 80s, sort of 'brown sound'...but slightly higher gain.
All of your comments have been helpful...however, I think nobozos is on the money here..at least in terms of trying to give me something that's a little more tangible, given my current rig...and my current abilities (or lack there of ).
I will say this. I have an old (early 90s) pedal board - an Ibanez PUE5 Tube (tube being the key)...they only made a few of them..and for a short time, I used it in my rig, and it sounded great. Over the years, it just seems to have lost some balls...even after changing out the tube...but I agree...chorus and delay are absolute musts in the sound I'm trying to get. You've answered a very important question for me here...and that is the question of overdrive vs. distortion...and more importantly, how to use them. I've never owned an overdrive...only distortion pedals (aside from that Ibanez board mentioned above...which had both a tube screamer and crunch setting built in). I see so many guys using the classic Ibanez tube screamer/overdrive pedals in their rigs, and I've been curious about them for some time now.

Now it's with the delay and chorus where I get a little flustered. I don't ever remember owning a delay pedal/effect (standalone) that didn't drive me nuts trying to dial it in. So, as a result...in my more recent setups, I've just used the delay built into the amp...which you can do nowadays because so many amps (particularly these new modeling amps) have delay built in. Same goes for chorus. I realize the sound I'm trying to get contains those two elements...I just don't really know how to apply them...at least not correctly. You mentioned "in the loop". Any time I've put things in the loop, I end up taking them out, and putting them up front again. Say for sh*ts and giggles I want to keep everything out front....So I have an amp with it's own distortion/gain turned up to a specific level....now I've got my pedal board...I've got a noise gate, an EQ, a compressor/sustainer (for some reason I've always had one of these in my rigs), and now I've just added an overdrive pedal. Plus, I'm considering the purchase of a delay pedal because it will certainly offer more features and options compared to the built-in generic delay...and a chorus pedal. What would be the ideal order to put these pedals in...and if you really do think that the delay and chorus should be in the loop instead, how would they be wired up?

Once again...I'm absolutely reading all your comments and taking them in. I do plan on writing to Paul (over at Guitar World). But I'd like to hear what a lot of you guys...particularly you old farts like me, who chase that 80s sound do to get it.

Thanks again...much appreciated.

Todd

 

[nobozos]

There's really no right or wrong way to the order of the pedals, if they give you the sound you're looking for. There are some suggestions about things that work better than others. One of the generally accepted practices is to put time based effects in the effects loop, if you have one, and signal level altering effects out front.

The winning combination seems to be delay/chorus/reverb in whatever levels and combinations gets you the desired sound. There are other variables that you can throw into the mix, like an EQ pedal out front, and a compressor. You have to be careful with a Compression/Sustainer and an overdrive pedal though, because the combination of the two can get pretty crappy sounding if you overdo either one. There is also some rack effects that played pretty heavily into some 80s players sound, like Evantide Harmonizers and Rockmans.

One site that you may find informational is called guitargeek.com. It shows different professional players rigs, and how it all ties together.

 

[straycat113]

Yes in detail Nobozos put you on the course you are looking for, as far as a delay I would say pick up a Boss, I do not know what they are up to now but back then it was either a 2 or 3 I believe. The big dive you hear at the end of eruption is not done with the bar it is done by turning up the speed knob on the DD very slowly to the max= very cool. Also Ed used an MXR script logo Phase 90 with the speed knob set slow as a big part of his tone as well as a Flanger, most of this gear will get you in the ballpark but their are so many truths and untruths about what guys used that it is hard to say exactly what is truth.

 

[dwntwn]

I have the Line6 Bogner SV MKI 2x12 combo and found that putting things such as a flanger and phase 90 in the effects loop on it doesn't sound near as good as it sounds when I put them through the front. For what ever reason when I put them throught the effects loop it makes the sound more digital if that makes sense, I posted this on the Line6 forum and they didn't have a answer, they just said that to do what ever sounds best to me.