Off Topic Digital Delay in the Loop or before Preamp?

[ScoobySteve]

Just wondering what you're guys' opinion is on the issue over here.

The stomp boxes I use are: TS9 OD, Dunlop Original Crybaby both with true-bypass modifications, and I set them both up before the preamp.

However I'm deciding whether or not to put my new BOSS DD-3 in the FX loop or just integrated it into my original set up. I understand that modulation boxes are always generally much better off in the FX loop, but anyone here have any input about digital delays?

I ask, because it's a hassle to have the wiring set up for ONE stomp box in the FX loop, when everything else is before the preamp. Is there a tone advantage, in your guys experience, to keeping the Delay in the loop, or before the preamp?

I'm using a modded '87 RG100ES 120w SS head over a Carvin 4x12 with v-30's.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ripper]

Loop definitely, since you want your signal to be distorted by the preamp section and send this signal into delay. If you can place your delay after any "slave out" section of the amp, it would be better.

Putting the delay in front of the amp will sort of "dilute" your original signal. You will be feeding a muddy clean tone into the preamp section. This possible undesired sound may be worsen if its amplified by the power section of the amp. Unless of course you dont need to use the preamp section to create a dirty sound, and you got good pedal to do the work, leaving the amp only for clean amplification.

My take here: guitar -> TS -> aMP (with dealy in loop)

Try for yourself for best result!

 

[ScoobySteve]

Thanks a ton for the response, I know I'm being a bit of a whiner here, but its frustrating setting this up on the pedal board when you got the majority of your stomp boxes before the amp, then you devote another section on your pedalboard for stomps in the loop.

But yea, gotta do what it takes to achieve and sustain the perfect tone.

 

[Ripper]

No problem, everyone is helpful here. No worry.

The general rule - Preamp/dist/wah/compressor in front of amp, modulation pedals in the loop.

Dude you need not thanks me a ton - you need a ton of CABLES though, for this setup, haha. Good luck.

 

[ScoobySteve]

Yeah, simplicity is my thing, but what can you do right? Haha, I just don't want to know what its going to be like when you gotta gig.

Cables, cables everywhere!

 

[roburado]

I'm not necessarily a stomp-box kind of guy. My only effects at this point are digital delay in the loop, but it's a rackmount thing. I don't know if that would make a difference.

Here's Robert Keeley's take on the issue of where to put a delay, but what he's talking about is putting it before the amp. So, maybe, the order of your effects might be something to think about too.
EFFECT PEDAL ORDER AND PLACEMENT

Q: Is there a specific order my effects should go in?

A: Yes and no. There are some guidelines that can be followed to make sure odd things don't happen. There have been times when a compressor after a delay pedal or reverb unit has caused some bad (good?) effects, there have been brilliant moves to place effects in certain orders that break most rules, but below is a guideline I came up with and was published in Musician's Hotline Magazine. Nice things is it gives you a way, a phrase to memorize so that when you're on the road, you can get it right if you pick up a new effect.
Placing effects in a logical order will help! This list of effects order is just a general guideline. Some of the best and most unique guitar tones have been created by breaking the rules! You guys need a head start at good tone right?! A way to make life easy right?! I came up with a little phrase to help remember the order because even I forget. Ask yourself this when you wonder about effects order or placement: Which Chain Of Effect Pedals Makes Life Easy? All you have to do is remember this phase and which letter corresponds to which type of effect. Wah -> Which, Compressor -> Chain, Overdrive -> Of, EQ -> Effect, Pitch -> Pedals, Modulation -> Make, Level -> Life, Echo -> Easy. I like to see wah pedals and sometimes even phasers as the first effect after the guitar. We�ll call these Wah effects (yes even the phaser). Wah pedals boost a frequency you sweep to with your foot and phasers cut or notch a frequency that is swept to electronically. Distortion pedals make interesting response changes to the boost or cut from these sweep pedals. Compressors typically go next although I like them after distortion pedals in many cases if the compressor is clean and transparent enough. Compression after distortion has two effects that I really like. First, the noise floor is lower because the noise from a compressor isn�t being amplified and distorted by the overdrive pedal. Second, there appears to be more sustain. There is one draw back that some people notice and that is a darker, warmer tone. Some folks might prefer a more conventional, brighter tone. Next comes Overdrive or distortion. Equalizer pedals can go next. They are commonly used for a boost pedal if they can be turned on and off, or used to shape the tone of the distortion pedal. Pitch changing pedals, Vibrato for example; go next for the simple reason that many distortion pedals can�t handle the many pitches at one time. Try strumming a complex chord with your distortion pedal on, say a C7#9#11. Modulation effects go next such as chorus and flanging go next. Level pedals that control the volume go next in many cases. This would include tremolo, volume pedals (great at this point in the effects chain because it cuts all the hiss going to your amp), noise gates and limiters. Since compression is a limiter in many cases and this is why it works post-distortion by the way. Echo effects go last. These include delay and reverb. A sample effects board might contain these effects: Guitar -> Wah, Compressor, Overdrive, EQ, Vibrato, Chorus, Tremolo, Volume Pedal, and Delay-> Amp.

 

[ScoobySteve]

Thanks for the response, I see what the post is indicating, but like you, I'm not a HUGE stomp box kinda guy. I only use 3 stomp boxes, maybe 4 if I decide to go with a Chorus stomp box. A true-bypass wah, Ts9 and a DD-3.

The problem with the chain outlined above is I hate having so many effects affecting my signal before it even reaches the amp. Call me a traditionalist, I just don't like having so many effects and furthermore not utilizing the FX loop. I guess in my experience (which is certainly not as expansive as others around here) it just tends to compromise my tone.

 

[TNT]

Scooby,

May I suggest??

All the posts were great and informative, however being a BIG delay nut, let me please add. The absolute BEST location for inserting delay is neither in front of, or in the middle of (fx loop) your amp; it's AFTER the power tubes!!

Now, because it's readily acceptable (and easier) to utilize the front or middle for delay, that's what you'll probably do. However, without going into the details of this, check out Amptone.com, they do an adequate job of elucidating this principle.

But, if you haven't bought the Boss DD3, and you can afford a little more you'll do EXTREMELY well to purchase either of the two pedals below. I only use an Eventide H3000 in my rack for delay, well, at least up until recently, I'm trying to build a "simpler" set up (non-rack) for easier gigin'.

The problem is I am spoiled by the Eventide delay, it is literally AWESOME and INCOMPARABLE to anything else on this planet - hands down!!!!!!

So, my task was to find a pedal, if at all possible, to be able to sub for the H3000 -well, here they are: Damage Control Timeline Parametric Delay and Eventide TimeFactor. Put one of these pedals in the "loop" and you'll never look back!!

 

[MusicManJP6]

How do you go about adding delay AFTER the power tubes, TNT? I'm curious now. I love delay! It's my favorite effect. If I could choose one and only one it would be delay without a doubt...

 

[TNT]

MMJP6

Yeah, I love "delay" too. As I mentioned, because most players try and simplify their gigin' set ups, typically the quality heavy time delays go in the loop, and the lesser quality pedals on the floor.

But, like in most all professional recording studios and professional concerts, the delays are AFTER the complete guitar chain, past the speakers - in the engineers "mixer"! Amptone.com discusses these principles.

With that said, I personally don't have an engineer for my gigs (lol) and I'm trying to downsize my gear (and leave my rack at home).

Hence, my need for a quality "delay" pedal, that will suffice. I do not at all like the Boss DD pedals.

I personally settled on the two floor based pedals (mentioned in prev post) that I run thru the loop. They don't get any better on the floor!

 

[ScoobySteve]

I will definitely check it out! Thanks for the informative response TNT.

I think before I start investing more heavily into stomp boxes or effects, I'm going to looking into upgrading my rig first.

I've been jamming on this 87 Randall RG100ES for YEARS now, and although IMO its a great SS head unit, I'm saving my pennies and dimes for either:

Roadking Series II
ENGL Invader
Bogner Ecstacy

The choices make decision making painful!

 

[dwells]

hey scoobby i just did the excact thing youre asking about !
Put it through the fx send /return 1000% better tone
cheers

 

[MusicManJP6]

Thanks for the info TNT! I see now what you mean by applying the delay after the power tubes in the studio...

I'll have to check out the floor delays you mentioned. I am using a behringer DD600 right now coz I sold my DD-5 to help pay for my rectoverb combo and wanted something cheap to get me by until the DD-7 comes out because it has 40 second sound on sound recording (good for practicing), tap tempo input, analog delay mode, and modulated delay mode added. It is also stereo in AND out, but i doubt i'll need that feature...

 

[TNT]

Yeah,

I really simplified from "rack to floor" - I wanted to just get up & go, set up & play, tear down & leave -with relative ease!!

However, the effects were my big concern!! I can't say enough about my H3000 D/SE, that unit was over $5,000 back in 96', and I got it @2 yrs later, still in the box. The delay was beyond words!

And, since "delay" that was the big challenge, I wanted to get as close to that quality delay, in a floor based pedal, NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE! And, back in 96' they didn't exist.

Well, things have changed now in the quality pedal market.

The two I concluded on were the Eventide Timefactor and Damage Control TimeLine, basically same price range. That combined with a standard Boss Flanger BF2, Custom Script Logo MXR Phase 90, Custom LE Morley George Lynch wah, and standard Boss Tuner TU2 is what I use now. No disappointments either!

My understanding is that Vai went to the floor for @$1500.00 (TC Elec). May be worth checking out!!

 

[ScoobySteve]

Don't know if I'm able to sink so much into an effect when I'm saving up already for an ENGL or Bogner!!!

Only if money grew on trees =D

 

[TNT]

Scooby,

Isn't the saving up, anticipation, and excitement part of the the fun of playin' though??
I really think it is.

I'm glad I had to save up for my MM guitars and gear. I not only appreciate them so much, more, but when I finally was able to get them, it was extra "special"!!

Oh, and that Bogner - wow, how special can that be!!??

 

[ScoobySteve]

I know what you mean, but MM guitars have this evil thing of "when you play them, you want them and nothing else." and when you don't have the money, it kills you to know that you can't immediately buy 6 more Balls.

 

[MusicManJP6]

The good thing about waiting 3+ months to receive a MM after ordering is that the time lets you save up until it comes in! That's how I bought all three of my JPs (one of which I no longer have). I'd put a down payment on it when ordering from the local dealer and then save/sell/save some more and make payments all the while.

With my BFR, I had to sell a JP, two mesa thiele cabs, and hold on to my tax return to be able to afford it (whew!), but it's the hard work to get up the money that makes it so much more gratifying to own! Of course, it's paid for in full but i'm still waiting on the EB team to put her together and send it to me! It will be four months i've been patiently waiting on the 25th of this month. Quality takes time!

 

[ScoobySteve]

Four months for a BFR order?! WOwzers

 

[MusicManJP6]

It was 6 months wait when they first came out! I'll be busy this week with final wedding planning and out on my honeymoon all next week so it's probably best that it hasn't come in yet. But, I'd LOVE to come back from the honeymoon (June 1st) and have an email from JeffreyB (my favorite dealer!) saying that my BFR arrived and he's prepared to ship it to me!