DiMarzio Transition Humbucker Variation

[Steve Nukather]

Here is a pro tip for players of Luke III guitars with DiMarzio Transition humbuckers: The Transition humbuckers that came factory installed in Luke III guitars from EBMM are constructed differently compared to the off-the-shelf replacement Transition humbuckers from DiMarzio.

The EBMM spec sounds darker, whereas the DiMarzio-packaged versions have more treble detail. This applies to both the neck and bridge humbucker models, DP254 and DP255.

 

[racerx]

That sounds interesting - do you have a detailed list of the changes between them, some pics/measurements?

 

[DrKev]

Where does this info come from? Is there documentation or just internet rumblings or what?

 

[Steve Nukather]

They sound different and when you take the two versions apart, you can see the difference. The EBMM is made of brass, and the DiMarzio replacement is nickel silver.

 

[Rbg]

You mean covers?

 

[Steve Nukather]

You mean covers?

Not the covers, but the baseplates.

 

[Rbg]

I am really surprised about brass to be honest, but both of these metals are non-magnetic so should not be that much of a difference... Also, maybe Dimarzio were using different plates back 10 years ago...

 

[DrKev]

Here's a quasi-scientific measurement showing the baseplates make too small a difference to be audible (comparing brass, nickel silver, and aluminum baseplates with the same coils). There is no change in resonant peak frequency, peak height changes less than 1dB.

https://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7861/humbucker-base-plates-eddy-currents

 

[Iperfungus]

The main question is: why should DiMarzio produce two different versions of Transition pickups?
This makes no sense to me.
I've the Luke III with Transitions and, personally, I do not find the tone is "dark" in any way...but this could depend from many other different factors.
But it has no sense to produce Transitions with a brass baseplate for EBMM and retail units with nickel-silver baseplate.
Unless EBMM required a brass baseplate....but....why should they?
And, if DiMarzio changed the baseplates through the last years, today's Luke III guitars should have the same baseplates of retail units.

Many people are absolutely convinced that covers or baseplates could modify the way a pickup behaves....but a pickup behaves based on magnets and coils.
The influence of other parts or materials is not relevant.
Other people are asolutely convinced that potted pickups sounds different from the same pickups non-potted....but WAX has no magnetic properties.
These people uses the only measurements tools they know: their beliefs and ears...and, to be honest, I'm not sure they work fine.

Physics does not lie.

 

[ruger9]

Well this thread is interesting...

 

[beej]

That's interesting. I have a set of Transition HBs in a Luke, and also in my Steve Morse. They do seem to be different baseplates. (That said ... the Luke is so much brighter, but it's a brighter guitar, and active ...)

I was under the impression that baseplates didn't contribute much to the equation ... plus brass and nickel silver aren't far off in terms of composition. But still, that's interesting.

Many people are absolutely convinced that covers or baseplates could modify the way a pickup behaves....but a pickup behaves based on magnets and coils.
The influence of other parts or materials is not relevant ... Physics does not lie.

It's a bit more complicated than just coils and magnets. In this case, eddy currents induced in the baseplate or cover can affect the tone of a pickup. The effect of removing the cover is an easy one to test.

 

[Iperfungus]

It's a bit more complicated than just coils and magnets. In this case, eddy currents induced in the baseplate or cover can affect the tone of a pickup. The effect of removing the cover is an easy one to test.

Well, ok....I simplified it a little, maybe...
By the way, it should be measured how much those eddy currents affect the signal from pickup to amp.
As you said above, I assume baseplates does not affect signal that much.
Covers, maybe, a little more.
But I assume that the final signal is due more to strings vibrating into a magnetic field and inducing a current into coils than to other factors.
I mean: that current should be strong enough to win over other factors.

About Transitions, you should swap pickups among Luke and Morse now!!!
That would be an interesting test.

 

[Steve Nukather]

Why do we use nickel silver baseplates? - Guitar Pickups, Bass Pickups, Pedals

Have you noticed that the baseplates on all of our passive humbuckers are silver in color? They’re made of nickel silver—and there’s a reason. Seth Lover used nickel-silver baseplates when he invented the humbucker in 1955. We think he did a pretty good job, and we like to respect the way he did...

www.seymourduncan.com

 

[Rbg]

One important consideration is that we can't have it both ways in this discussion. If someone chooses to argue their case based on the physical principles, such as the influence of eddy currents and differences in inductance, then it's crucial to follow that path consistently and acknowledge that the calculated or estimated contributions of these effects to the main signal are often times or even orders of magnitude smaller. The measurements shared above do seem to support this perspective.

On the other hand, if an individual prefers to base their judgments solely on personal listening experiences and disregards the formulas and principles, it becomes essential to conduct listening experiments in a blind or even double-blind manner to ensure unbiased results.

At the same time, if someone's feelings and observations enhance their enjoyment of playing a musical instrument, that's a wonderful and can not be argued and criticizing. However, these subjective experiences should not be presented as an absolute "truth."

By the way, OP I appreciate your contributions to this forum; your recent posts (I am a new member so can speak for those only) have sparked engaging discussions and added a refreshing dynamic to this somewhat calm community.

 

[Iperfungus]

One important consideration is that we can't have it both ways in this discussion. If someone chooses to argue their case based on the physical principles, such as the influence of eddy currents and differences in inductance, then it's crucial to follow that path consistently and acknowledge that the calculated or estimated contributions of these effects to the main signal are often times or even orders of magnitude smaller. The measurements shared above do seem to support this perspective.

On the other hand, if an individual prefers to base their judgments solely on personal listening experiences and disregards the formulas and principles, it becomes essential to conduct listening experiments in a blind or even double-blind manner to ensure unbiased results.

At the same time, if someone's feelings and observations enhance their enjoyment of playing a musical instrument, that's a wonderful and can not be argued and criticizing. However, these subjective experiences should not be presented as an absolute "truth."

By the way, OP I appreciate your contributions to this forum; your recent posts (I am a new member so can speak for those only) have sparked engaging discussions and added a refreshing dynamic to this somewhat calm community.

Amen bro!

 

[Steve Nukather]

Curiously, some DiMarzio humbucker models consistently use brass baseplates, while other models consistently use nickel silver. The PAF Pro, Tone Zone, Super Distortion X2N, Air Classic, D Activator, etc always have brass. Other models like AT-1, PAF Master, Satchur8, etc have nickel silver. If there was no difference, why would they go through the trouble of using the two different materials? It would certainly be easier in production to use one type for everything.

 

[DrKev]

DiMarzio do make cosmetic choices for their baseplates. From their website...

WHAT ARE "DIMARZIO® BLACK BACK PICKUPS"?
Although "black back" is not a nickname that we have ever used, it commonly refers to the fact that some of our humbuckers have black base plates rather than brass or nickel silver. This is simply a cosmetic choice which does not affect performance, and it doesn't actually refer to specific models. However, the Breed™ and Evolution® models are built with black base plates as a standard feature.

 

[Iperfungus]

DiMarzio do make cosmetic choices for their baseplates. From their website...

Well, just for fun....Transitions on my Luke III seems to have a black baseplate, according to lugs color...

 

[Steve Nukather]

yes, that is what I mean…. the EBMM Transition baseplates are black painted brass

 

[GoKart Mozart]

yes, that is what I mean…. the EBMM Transition baseplates are black painted brass

Can confirm that the black-painted brass is also used on the Liquifire. Had to modify this one to fit in the dumb proprietary route of an EVH guitar today.



The Fred that I put in the bridge has a regular unpainted brass plate.

Both of my LIIIs have the black baseplates also.