Electronic tuners and accuracy

[dlloyd]

I was having a "discussion" with someone on another forum about setting up guitars/basses. It's a newsgroup aimed at beginner guitarists and my point was that setting up a guitar was easy...

Me:

An easy-to-follow guide can be found at http://www.mrgearhead.net/

The only things I would add to that info there are:

1. Make sure you use appropriate tools of the correct size (don't use
a kitchen knife as a screwdriver!),

Other guy:

Good advice. Nut slot files are about $13USD per gauge (you'll need one for
each of the string gauges you intend to use...at least until you get used to
rocking them back and forth), a 24" straightedge (no, not a ruler) about
$55USD and some smaller straightedges (a fret rocker will cost you about
$20USD)...a leveling file is about $40USD and radius blocks (to properly
level your frets) are about $15USD each...if you only have guitars with a
single radius, this is pretty cheap. Fret crowning files are a little more,
about $150USD for 150 and 300 grit. You'll want a dressing stick for the
final fret polish and a cant saw file to get the fret ends nicely rounded,
for an electric a polarity tester, a neck rest (of course). You'll need
several grades of sandpaper to properly polish your nut, a good quality
tuner is helpful in setting the intonation ( the most accurate would be a
strobe ~$800, though the Peterson VS-II is quite nice at around $200 USD
and, as you point out, the all important Allen keys ($5 for both metric and
imperial)...

All these supplies can be purchased at www.stewmac.com

Uhm...$35 for a setup doesn't seem so bad now does it?

Me:

A strobe tuner for setting the intonation on a beginners guitar? You
need that sort of accuracy? Sure, some sort of tuner is really needed
for this (kind of conflicts with my point on another branch of this
thread, I know), but a cheapo Korg will do fine (1 cent accuracy
compared with 0.1 cent on the peterson).

Other guy:

The Korgs I've tested catch the signal at plus or minus 10-30 cents...almost
1/3 of a semitone between grabbing a signal and letting it go. Again, do a
google on this group for past threads. Just because you are a beginner
doesn't mean you are tone deaf and cannot tell a well intonated axe from one
that is unable to play in tune along the neck.

I've been doing setups on my gear for a while now, with good results... other people have played instruments setup by me and asked me to work on their guitars (we're talking professional musicians here). I generally use a cheap Korg tuner to set up with... I've no idea what he's talking about catching at +/- 10 to 30 cents...

Any ideas???

 

[spectorbassguy]

Not sure exactly what he's talking about, however:

When I tune on a cheap handheld or pedal tuner, it shows I'm in tune very easily. Then I'll tune on my Korg DTR-2 and it will usually be off a few "cents" one way or the other. The rackmount tuner is MUCH more sensitive so I can imagine that the Peterson strobe tuner would be even more exacting.

Kind of sounds like the guy you were conversing with doesn't really want to lose any business from noobs who decide to set up their own guitars.

 

[bassmonkeee]

I picked up a Petersen virtual strobe for doing my own setups, and while it does help, immensely, it certainly isn't an absolute neccessity.

As for his files, and sandpaper, etc...well, if you have to do serious work on the instrument every time you set it up, then, yeah--you might need all of that stuff eventually. But, I've been doing my own setups for about 15 years now, and I will enlist the help of a pro when I know the basses need fretwork, etc. But, since I don't need to file my nut slots every time I change frikkin' strings, I dont really need those tools.

I mean, I could buy $5000 worth of tools to work on my car, but if all I need is an oil change, I don't need all of that stuff, do I?

 

[jongitarz]

I use Peterson VS1 here and at home...Not cheap, but a good investment for anyone who does some of their own work.

 

[dlloyd]

I picked up a Petersen virtual strobe for doing my own setups, and while it does help, immensely, it certainly isn't an absolute neccessity.

As for his files, and sandpaper, etc...well, if you have to do serious work on the instrument every time you set it up, then, yeah--you might need all of that stuff eventually. But, I've been doing my own setups for about 15 years now, and I will enlist the help of a pro when I know the basses need fretwork, etc. But, since I don't need to file my nut slots every time I change frikkin' strings, I dont really need those tools.

I mean, I could buy $5000 worth of tools to work on my car, but if all I need is an oil change, I don't need all of that stuff, do I?

Yeah, the way I formatted the conversation, I managed to delete my reply to that. I mean, $35 for a fret dress? Is that usual?

 

[jongitarz]

That is cheap!

 

[cgworkman]

I mean, I could buy $5000 worth of tools to work on my car, but if all I need is an oil change, I don't need all of that stuff, do I?

 

[bovinehost]

I use a 10 year old Sabine POS most of the time when I'm setting my intonation, and it won't even register a low B. And I tell you, I'm close enough for bass work.

I do have a rack mount Korg, but it's so fancy that I sort of look on it with disdain. It will read my B strings, though, so there is that.

But you can see it glaring when I use my old Sabine. It seems so .... haughty.

 

[Fuzzy Dustmite]

Yeah, the way I formatted the conversation, I managed to delete my reply to that. I mean, $35 for a fret dress? Is that usual?

I think I paid $40 for a setup & another $40 for a fret dress when I got my bass, so that's not a bad deal.

 

[midopa]

I use a POS Yamaha hand-held tuner for setting the intonation and haven't had a problem! No need for $5,000 toolkits here! Of course, I've got to be a bit careful, as even the slightest tap will shut the tuner off!

 

[tkarter]

Korg CA-30 does a fine job for me and sees the B right off.

tk

 

[lowstrung]

Strobe tuner's are nice, and expensive. I would rather invest my money in some other piece of equipment. As you know when you intonate on the bench laying flat, as opposed to hanging from your neck, It is differant. How accurate do you have to be when you are in the middle of a set and the drummer is out of tempo, the lead guitar just broke his G string and you really need a brake.

 

[bassmonkeee]

Strobe tuner's are nice, and expensive. I would rather invest my money in some other piece of equipment. As you know when you intonate on the bench laying flat, as opposed to hanging from your neck, It is differant. How accurate do you have to be when you are in the middle of a set and the drummer is out of tempo, the lead guitar just broke his G string and you really need a brake.

Well, that's why I always do final intonation adjustments in playing position.

And, I make a point of playing with drummers who can actually play in time, and my guitar player only uses stopped tailpiece bridges.

So, I am glad I have my Petersen. Besides, the pretty blue screen looks cool during a gig. And, setting the intonation on my 8 string fretless....well...I need all the help I can get.

 

[lowstrung]

Well, that's why I always do final intonation adjustments in playing position.

And, I make a point of playing with drummers who can actually play in time, and my guitar player only uses stopped tailpiece bridges.

So, I am glad I have my Petersen. Besides, the pretty blue screen looks cool during a gig. And, setting the intonation on my 8 string fretless....well...I need all the help I can get.

All I was saying was. You don't need a strobe to set up. I think Its great that you have one. Petersens are great strobes. I agree with you that intonation has to be done standing up. What I was trying to convey is that that guy with all the equipment probably intonates on the bench. So I would rather have my guitar intonated on my neck with a cheap Korg than on the bench with a Petersen strobe. As for playing an eight string fretless. You know way more than I will ever know. What does a stopped tailpiece bridge have anything to do with string breakage. I assume that your intonation ajustment screws are very fine 1200 per inch micromilimeter I can't get any closer than that screws.

 

[tkarter]

All I was saying was. You don't need a strobe to set up. I think Its great that you have one. Petersens are great strobes. I agree with you that intonation has to be done standing up. What I was trying to convey is that that guy with all the equipment probably intonates on the bench. So I would rather have my guitar intonated on my neck with a cheap Korg than on the bench with a Petersen strobe. As for playing an eight string fretless. You know way more than I will ever know. What does a stopped tailpiece bridge have anything to do with string breakage. I assume that your intonation ajustment screws are very fine 1200 per inch micromilimeter I can't get any closer than that screws.

Floyd Rose bridges are hard to keep intonated. Or I should say the licensed copies of the bridge. Can be done but you better keep the bridge level and tensioned properly.

IMHO

tk

 

[lowstrung]

Floyd Rose bridges are hard to keep intonated. Or I should say the licensed copies of the bridge. Can be done but you better keep the bridge level and tensioned properly.

IMHO

tk

I agree. I have an EB Axis with a licensed Floyd Rose Trim. I also have fender trems, the old 6 screw and the new 2 screw. Intonation is a little more complicated, but still can be done. As for staying in tune, well thats a differant story. A bass bridge is fixed. Set up is simple. What I am trying to say is how perfect does it have to be? A fretted board can't be perfect. A fretless with no markers can be, as long as you have perfect technique and perfect pitch hearing.

 

[bassmonkeee]

All I was saying was. You don't need a strobe to set up. I think Its great that you have one. Petersens are great strobes. I agree with you that intonation has to be done standing up. What I was trying to convey is that that guy with all the equipment probably intonates on the bench. So I would rather have my guitar intonated on my neck with a cheap Korg than on the bench with a Petersen strobe. As for playing an eight string fretless. You know way more than I will ever know. What does a stopped tailpiece bridge have anything to do with string breakage. I assume that your intonation ajustment screws are very fine 1200 per inch micromilimeter I can't get any closer than that screws.

Hey, I wasn't arguing. I did just fine intonating my basses without a strobe for 15 years. I do find, however, that I can do it more quickly with the strobe since it tracks better. Other than that, it certainly isn't a requirement for a good setup, I agree. Hell--I've done reasonable setups without any tuner at all just listening for warble, and adjusting on the fly.

My only point about the stopped tailpiece bridge was that he doesn't seem to go as wildly out of tune when he breaks a string during a solo since he isn't losing tension on tremolo springs. I usually don't notice until he whaps me in the head with the broken string when I look at him to ask, "Geez--another 12 bars for the solo?"

I had some very fine 1200 per inch micromilimeter screws, but I keep them in a box with my broken sarcasm detector.

 

[lowstrung]

Hey Bassmonkeee,

I owe you a cool refreshment, and I am sorry for sounding so argumentitive. That really isn't my nature. Hell who knows maybe I just want a petersen strob of my own.

Mike

 

[bassmonkeee]

Hey Bassmonkeee,

I owe you a cool refreshment, and I am sorry for sounding so argumentitive. That really isn't my nature. Hell who knows maybe I just want a petersen strob of my own.

Mike

It's all good. I sometimes get in an unnecessary snit from time to time, too.

The strobes are fun, but, in all honesty, I wouldn't own one, either, if I hadn't bought it when I ordered my fretless Bongo with 15 months same as cash. When you space the payments out over more than a year, $200 is a heckuva lot easier to justify.

Just to show you I hold no ill feelings, I present Florida's contestant for the Miss America pagent in her Speedo :

 

[lowstrung]

Holy smokes,

I wonder if that speedo held up to those hurricane force winds??