Ernie Ball Volume Pedal's Tuner Out

[Morbid]

Hey fellas. I know this probably isn't the right spot for this question, but I imagine an admin can/will move this if it needs to be.

At any rate, this is the Ernie Ball forum, so I figured it'd be the best place for an Ernie Ball question.

I have an Ernie Ball Volume Pedal that I use in my effects loop for my rig. I like the full gain swell better than the gradual increase in volume and gain, thus my reasoning for using it in the effects loop.

But my question is this; I've seen a lot of people complain and comment on tone loss when using the Tuner Out, but what do YOU think? Did you notice a tone loss at all? And by using mine in my effects loop, do you think I'd notice a tone loss?

Share your experience and insight with me.

Thanks gang!

 

[Colin]

I've never heard anyone complain about tone loss, have you tried it yourself to see? I have a vpjr in my fx loop (parallel) and have no problems

 

[fbecir]

Hello

If you use the volume pedal just after the guitar (or after a true bypass pedal switched off), the tuner output will suck half of your signal (a dirty story of impedance ...).
But, if you use the volume pedal after a buffered pedal or in an effect loop, there is no problem.
I use my VP after all my pedals and I use the tuner out and life is good

 

[beej]

A volume pedal is a potentiometer wired in parallel to your signal. When you use one right after your guitar, it's exactly as if you'd wired in another volume pot.

What happens is the extra load in parallel reduces the overall resistance seen by your guitar's signal (the math of adding resistances in parallel), and this lowers the resonant peak of your guitar's circuit, has the effect of reducing the highs. That's what people call "tone suck". It's just a loss of treble due to less resistance or more capacitance.

The way to prevent this is to isolate your guitar from electrical effects further down the signal chain. You do this by plugging into something with a very high impedance. (When you do the math, you see that a high resistance in parallel won't affect the overall resistance seen by your guitar very much.) This can be your amp, a pedal or a dedicated buffer.

A buffer is just an amplifier with "unity gain", meaning it doesn't make the signal any louder. It just presents your guitar with a high input impedance and a low output impedance (so it can drive the signal over long cable lengths w/o any affect), effectively isolating your guitar from whatever comes next.

As for FX loops- most good loops are buffered and low impedance, so putting a VP in there won't affect your signal any (the effect would actually be on the amplifier, not your guitar, if there were one).

So- the tuner out ...

The deal is, that output is in parallel to the regular output. So whatever you put in there just contributes to the overall load, in parallel. A lot depends on what you connect it to. Right after a guitar, it can have a big impact and lower the resonant frequencies, making your guitar sound less bright. If the pedal is after a decent buffer, then as above you're ok.

Anyhow, there's no real magic to this. It's just a matter of understanding how different components load your signal, and what that means in practical terms. Many people think volume pedals are these magical things ... usually a VP is just a variable pot in a pedal, exactly like wiring up another control on your guitar. I can't count the number of threads I've seen on TGP that get outta control about this stuff.

Last q- do you need a buffer? Only if you don't like the sound of your guitar, through your rig, into your amp. If it sounds dull and lacking treble, placing a buffer right after your guitar (or good buffered pedal, the Boss ones are decent) can do wonders.

---

Bonus nerd stuff-

For reference, when we talk about impedances:

The circuit from a passive guitar is on the order of a few 100k-500k Ohm. Active (or after a buffer or loop) is on the order of 1k-25k Ohms. And the input impedance you'd see from an amp or pedal is usually 1M-10M Ohms.

You can work out the total resistances like so-

1/Rtotal = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + ...

R1 might be the value of your volume pot (250k), R2 your tone pot (250k), R3 the front end of your amp (1,000k), and so on. If you play with it you'll quickly see how using the wrong thing in front of your guitar (like a 25k volume pedal) has a major effect.

 

[Jimmyb]

^ what he said!

 

[PeteDuBaldo]

I use the tuner out with the pedal in my FX loop and have no tone sucking problems whatsoever (my tone is always = suck!)

 

[Morbid]

Beej, brilliant reply. Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else also.

 

[beej]

Any time!

 

[ShaneV]

(my tone is always = suck!)

I've seen some of your videos, and that's a dirty lie.

 

[HCB]

Wow, thanks also for real reply. I love to lean new things!