How do Suhr, Tyler, Melancon compare?

[droptop]

Droptop
first you say that fender custom shop is a direct response to suhr tyler anderson. I shoot holes in it and you say that we are undermarketed????? what is your pedigee?
what is your experience making and marketing guitars. I am backordered more than all combined and make more than all combined. who is mismarketed?

Shoot holes??? Fender Custom Shop is a response to the upper markets request for higher quality Fenders. When did they get their noteriety? What brought it on? It was a reponse to the market place. Same as EBMM and OLP. Its not a bad thing...self defense. And some great things have come out of it. I love my Custom Shop Tele.

As for marketing, just telling you what the stores in this area are saying as to why they aren't stocking your guitars in large volumes. The ones they've carried sit because the general guitar buying public doesn't know enough about them. Don't believe me check the number of Lukes, SM, JPs sold out of GC in the DC area or Washington Music in the last year. I'm not knocking your product, its a great product ( and I really like my EBMM Guitar)...but I had to go two states out to find one being carried by a store because none of the stores near me carried them, they only did special orders. I'd like to see you guys do well in our market. What is my pedigree? Simple, I'm your customer...the buying public.

 

[guitrr]

Woohoo! Everybody Bongo!

I'm not much of a bass player, but I have got to get me one of those - those basses are so cool!

Kane

 

[Motojunkie]

Woohoo! Everybody Bongo!

I'm not much of a bass player, but I have got to get me one of those - those basses are so cool!

Kane

You obviously haven't seen Jack's collection. Mine pales in comparison.

 

[droptop]

Back to the main topic, on the other hand, over the last 20 years, PRS seems to have taken a fair chunk out of Gibson's market share in the Mahogany/Maple top/humbucker equipped market, to the extent that PRS is now a very large scale production company, and definitely steals sales from Gibson.

Kane

Sadly Gibson's quality has been lacking for some time. Its sad when a $5000 custom shop Gibson arrives needing a major setup. What ever ended up happening with the lawsuit on the singlecut? I heard PRS had to make some mods on the design.

 

[Colin]

Sadly Gibson's quality has been lacking for some time. Its sad when a $5000 custom shop Gibson arrives needing a major setup. What ever ended up happening with the lawsuit on the singlecut? I heard PRS had to make some mods on the design.

You do know that this is the Ernie Ball forum don't you?

 

[guitrr]

Sadly Gibson's quality has been lacking for some time. Its sad when a $5000 custom shop Gibson arrives needing a major setup. What ever ended up happening with the lawsuit on the singlecut? I heard PRS had to make some mods on the design.

As a multiple PRS owner and regular on BAM, I can say with surety that the lawsuit was thrown out of court, earlier this year I believe. PRS production of the Singlecut has resumed, without any modifications to PRS's original design. Score one for the good guys - that lawsuit was such BS.

The day after the lawsuit was filed by Gibson, I bought an SC. I couldn't afford it at the time, but I'd been drooling over them for several years, and figured if I didn't buy one quickly, one of two things was going to happen:

1) You wouldn't be able to get ahold of one at all

or,

2) The market on used Singlecuts would go through the roof

The later did happen for a time. I bought mine for less than 2k brand new, and within a few months they were going for 3-4k on ebay. Obviously now things have stabilized, with all the major (high volume) PRS dealers now having a few in stock. But no regrets for me, I got a fabulous goldtop that weighs 7 1/4 lbs, is incredibly resonant, and is a joy to play. I swapped the pickups out for a set of Jim Wagner's Darkbursts, and that guitar is just awesome!

Kane

 

[droptop]

As a multiple PRS owner and regular on BAM, I can say with surety that the lawsuit was thrown out of court, earlier this year I believe. PRS production of the Singlecut has resumed, without any modifications to PRS's original design. Score one for the good guys - that lawsuit was such BS.

The day after the lawsuit was filed by Gibson, I bought an SC. I couldn't afford it at the time, but I'd been drooling over them for several years, and figured if I didn't buy one quickly, one of two things was going to happen:

1) You wouldn't be able to get ahold of one at all

or,

2) The market on used Singlecuts would go through the roof

The later did happen for a time. I bought mine for less than 2k brand new, and within a few months they were going for 3-4k on ebay. Obviously now things have stabilized, with all the major (high volume) PRS dealers now having a few in stock. But no regrets for me, I got a fabulous goldtop that weighs 7 1/4 lbs, is incredibly resonant, and is a joy to play. I swapped the pickups out for a set of Jim Wagner's Darkbursts, and that guitar is just awesome!

Kane

I always thought that the headstock was the key to those lawsuits...something that never made sense to me. As long as you didn't copy the headstock you were fine. Sounds like you made out OK. Which EBMM do you own?

 

[J-Nick]

As for marketing, just telling you what the stores in this area are saying as to why they aren't stocking your guitars in large volumes. The ones they've carried sit because the general guitar buying public doesn't know enough about them. Don't believe me check the number of Lukes, SM, JPs sold out of GC in the DC area or Washington Music in the last year. I'm not knocking your product, its a great product ( and I really like my EBMM Guitar)...but I had to go two states out to find one being carried by a store because none of the stores near me carried them, they only did special orders. I'd like to see you guys do well in our market. What is my pedigree? Simple, I'm your customer...the buying public.

To me EBMM are not poorly marketed at all. I have yet to see a Suhr, Tyler, etc. at my local guitar stores (never seen one in Montreal either)... but I've seen plenty of EBMMs. I remember BP telling us that the reasons the stores do not stock a lot of EBMMs is that people don't want to buy directly off the shelf, they rather order their own guitar (just like they would do by ordering from a "boutique" manufacturer ).

As a side note, I feel very lucky that EBMM will offer what can be considered a great variety for southpaws. I might be wrong, but I haven't seen anything about lefty guitars being offered by Anderson or Suhr, Tyler, etc. I know that most manufacturers couldn't care less about southpaws because we're such a small market, but apparently EBMM do care... I can get the same quality guitars than everybody else, with no surcharge and without financing my guitar purchases over the next 20 yrs.

Cheers

 

[SteveB]

I always thought that the headstock was the key to those lawsuits...something that never made sense to me. As long as you didn't copy the headstock you were fine. Sounds like you made out OK. Which EBMM do you own?

The headstock shape has historically been the key to the trademark suits, but in the case of Gibson vs. PRS it was not about the headstock.
(The headstock cases have prevailed in the past.)

I think the bodies have been copied for so long, and no patents had ever been awarded for body styles, so most manufacturers knew it would be a tough sell in court. I believe that F@nder or some other brand had indeed protected their headstock design, thus it was possible to make claims.

 

[Big Poppa]

Droptop,
We are backordered 6 months...I think that you have to go back to my motivation for makn instruments. I dont want to be Fender or Gibson. I can only make so many without suffering in the quality dept. I would rather invest in new technology rather thanput four color ads in guitar mags. I have over 450 dealers in the USA...the other guys dont have that combined...once again who is undermarketed.

The last thing that I would like to do is infer any displeasure in any way with these boutique makers. I respect and admire their dedication and craft. Each and every one.
They have faced very tough odds to carve away a niche in this very challenging market
To organically grow a guitar biz from scratch required each of these artists to make great personal sacrifice.

Think about it....if you are of the school that Fenders aren't what they were ALL of us smaller makers really should thank them by creating the space for us.

 

[Jonny Dubai]

Here endeth our first lesson.

Well said big man.

Jonny

 

[koogie2k]

Nice. I love the admiration Big Poppa has for other manufacturer's as well. As he has stated before...he is pro choice. No need for a Custom Shop.....we get Custom Quality and that is more valuable to me than having a one off boo-teak guitar. Not to say boo-teak makers have bad quality, just don't see myself paying huge amounts of $$$ when I get the "Oh my God" feeling every time I get a new EBMM. For the price of some customs, I ordered and got two bongo basses. One is my weapon of choice (Stealth) and the other is due sometime this year. The wait is fine.....I know it will be an exeptionally made bass that will give me the Custom Boo-teak "Oh My God" feeling!

Welcome to the addiction is not just a saying.....it is truly an addiction to own an EBMM.....most everyone here has 2 or more.....that is an addiction!

Why would I own 6+ EBMM's if they were not great instruments? Each one has it's own personality and I love them all!

By the way, I like that pic of the Suhr....great looking axe. Enjoy!

 

[candyredsilo]

Big Poppa,
passionate and taking no crap.....I like it. Think I'll go play my Silo!

 

[droptop]

Droptop,

The last thing that I would like to do is infer any displeasure in any way with these boutique makers. I respect and admire their dedication and craft. Each and every one.
They have faced very tough odds to carve away a niche in this very challenging market
To organically grow a guitar biz from scratch required each of these artists to make great personal sacrifice.

Think about it....if you are of the school that Fenders aren't what they were ALL of us smaller makers really should thank them by creating the space for us.

Its good to see so much passion for what you do. I appreciate that EBMMs don't look, feel or sound like the mass production.

The boutique companies do have a hard time in the current market place. With the exception of Washington Music, GC has taken all the competition out of our market. The downside of that is limited access to smaller manufacturers. At least in our market, unless you can provide volumes of instruments that sell, GC won't carry your product. They tried carrying Fulltone but Fulltone apparently couldn't keep up with the volume requirements. They have a business model that doesn't favor smaller companies. We use to have a store called Veneman's that carried the full line of EBMM, Tyler, Anderson and Grosh. GC and MARS came along and the forced Veneman's out of business. With it went the local distribution of many of those coveted brands. Are we the only ones seeing this?

 

[Ali]

BP is one genuinely nice guy. He needs more of my money. Just the small question of a maple topped Luke to make me part with it........

Anyway, I digress. Like everyone above, I tried out all the top makers guitars. I liked the idea of a single guitar that could do almost everything and looked into them all. The problem was that I couldn't get on with them. I tried the TAs and found them well built, but no better than EBMM. A few extra decorative flourishes but not any better quality. And the tones I was getting from the 3 or 4 I tried were all a bit sterile. Its been said before and I didn't really understand it until I played them, but they're just nice...not amazing. The Suhr's were much the same IMO. Beuatifully finished and built but nothing special. The Tylers were the pick of the three and all the ones I tried, I liked, but while the necks were superb, they were just too chunky for me. Then I tried an Axis, then a Luke...and both blew me away. The Luke was ordered straight away and arrived 7 months later. Loved it so much that within 2 days...and after realising how much I'd saved by buying the Luke rather than the Tyler, the Axis was ordered too. HAven't looked back sonce then. The only problem I have now is trying to choose an amp. My guitar choice is fixed......unless BP reads the first line and nods his head

 

[Big Poppa]

Its good to see so much passion for what you do. I appreciate that EBMMs don't look, feel or sound like the mass production.

The boutique companies do have a hard time in the current market place. With the exception of Washington Music, GC has taken all the competition out of our market. The downside of that is limited access to smaller manufacturers. At least in our market, unless you can provide volumes of instruments that sell, GC won't carry your product. They tried carrying Fulltone but Fulltone apparently couldn't keep up with the volume requirements. They have a business model that doesn't favor smaller companies. We use to have a store called Veneman's that carried the full line of EBMM, Tyler, Anderson and Grosh. GC and MARS came along and the forced Veneman's out of business. With it went the local distribution of many of those coveted brands. Are we the only ones seeing this?

Droptop

I knew Koob and Ted Veneman. I was their rep in 1973-1979. It is really easy to blame GC for each and every failure in the market, but there were family issues between father and son. There was also a reluctance to believe that they may have to continue to evolve. They also really didnt believe that their customeres would support mars or GC. I have seen this in so many markets. A very old friend in a major northwest market had four stores and I flew up to tell him that GC is coming and that he needed to quickly change his model. He and His partner were rolling in dough and said This is XXXXX, they wont support Guitar Center, we appreciate your concern and effort but dont try to tell us our business or market" THey have one small store left and are no longers partners. They are also still shellshocked that their customers left them, (not to mention no longer rolling in dough)

Consumers vote with thier dollars, they ultimaltely decide who suceeds or fails. Washington Music Center has thrived with Guitar Center in your market.

 

[Ali]

Ironically, in the UK its the little guys that are now doing really well. I suppose the clostest we have to GC is probably Sound Control who deal in all instruments, but in Scotland at least, the smaller shops that rose to the challenge, particularly a 2 store chain called GuitarGuitar, are doing extremely well. Sometimes the smaller you are, the faster you can adapt to change...as long as you realise you have to.

 

[guitrr]

I always thought that the headstock was the key to those lawsuits...something that never made sense to me. As long as you didn't copy the headstock you were fine. Sounds like you made out OK. Which EBMM do you own?

Droptop,

Actually, the headstock shape was hardly an issue in the lawsuit and subsequent trial. Apparently, when PRS was initially considering production of the Singlecut, Gibson approached them and requested that some of the control layout be changed, as to have less similarity to a LesPaul. PRS refused, and released the guitar as originally planned, though they later released the Singlecut Trem, which has some of the mods that Gibson had requested. Ironic, eh?

Anyhow, the SC is very similar if you ask me, but the 4 volume and tone controls are laid out slightly different. One of my favorite attributes of the SC is that the neck volume knob is right under your pinky, like the volume knob on a strat (and on most of PRS' other models.)

One argument that Gibson's attorney's presented in court was that "...In a smoky bar" a person would not be able to distinguish between the PRS and a LP - a remark that the guys on Birds and Moons (the unofficial PRS owner's club) had a field day with! PRS' argument was that the two guitars are different enough as to be able to distinguish between them.

Besides, people have been copying the LP for at least 30 years, without a whimper from Gibson, until PRS started stealing away their customers. Gibson has had major dip in quality control, and if you want to be assured of getting a good one sight unseen, you buy a $4000 Historic. Not to mention they seem to extort many of their own retailers. Don't get me started - someone up in the Ivory Tower at Gibby is out of touch, to say the least.

I own an Axis Sport Rosewood. It's my third EBMM: I returned a Luke because the neck was much too slender for my tastes, and I bought an Ebay Axis on a whim, turned around a week later and sold it because the Floyd Rose drove me nuts. To be honest, I would have sold the Axis SS too, again on account of the slender neck, but I like the guitar, and I found out on this forum that Warmoth is now making EBMM replacement necks in different neck profiles, so one of those is in the future for that guitar. Earlier on this thread I posted a pic of 95% of my guitars, and the EBMM is in the middle.

Kane

 

[Big Poppa]

Hi Sterling,

Paul Smith asked me to forward this to you, with our thanks for your ongoing support.

Sincerely,

Debra J. Wolstein
Executive Assistant to Paul Reed Smith

PRS Guitars
380 Log Canoe Circle
Stevensville, MD 21666
(410) 643-9970 Ext. 175
[email protected]


-- PRESS RELEASE --
Contact: Rebecca Eaddy

PR/Media Manager

PRS Guitars, Ltd.

410-643-9970, ext 114

[email protected]

www.prsguitars.com



Singlecut



Supreme Court Ends Gibson Lawsuit Against PRS



(STEVENSVILLE, MD) June 5, 2006 — Paul Reed Smith Guitars is very pleased to announce that the United States Supreme Court today denied Gibson Guitar's final appeal of a Court of Appeals decision upholding PRS' right to make a single cutaway-style guitar. When first introduced more than six years ago at the NAMM show, the PRS Singlecut® quickly captured the attention of artists and critics, winning awards for its design and quality. Seeking to stop competition to its Les Paul brand single cutaway-style guitar, Gibson moved aggressively, filing a suit in Nashville that asserted trademark infringement. After several years of expensive and drawn-out litigation, the local federal district court judge initially sided with Gibson. That court ordered PRS to stop sales of its Singlecut®. Several companies joined PRS in urging the appellate court--the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit--to reverse the decision. Last year, the Sixth Circuit ruled that an injunction should never have been issued by the lower court. The court observed that Gibson conceded that only "an idiot" would ever confuse a PRS Singlecut® and a Gibson Les Paul. Based on that concession and the overwhelming evidence, the Sixth Circuit found that Gibson's trademark case had no merit and summarily dismissed the suit. The Supreme Court's decision today leaves the Sixth Circuit opinion in place and ends Gibson's multi-year effort to thwart legitimate competition under the guise of intellectual property law.



Paul Reed Smith, the company founder, stated: "I am delighted for our employees, our dealers, our customers and the industry. Everyone was extremely supportive of our cause and our company over the last six years, fully embracing our decision to fight back against Gibson's charges." Smith added: "My thanks especially go to those in the industry who helped educate the court: the media, our industry peers, guitar craftsmen and industry scholars. Their help was invaluable.”



Photo: PRS Singlecut® attached



####



Just giving you the most ACCURATE an timely news! Guitrr you will see the the gibson exec quote you had backwards, it was their undoing. Kane dont worry about MM being in the middleo f your favorites, you are in about the same place here! (just kidding)

 

[guitrr]

Just giving you the most ACCURATE an timely news! Guitrr you will see the the gibson exec quote you had backwards, it was their undoing. Kane dont worry about MM being in the middleo f your favorites, you are in about the same place here! (just kidding)

HAHA! Touche'! Hey, I hope to make it to the event this fall, and look forward to meeting all of you! Do you have to know more than 3 chords to attend? I sure hope not...

Kane