Introducing Sterling by Music Man

[PugNinjas]

This is very cool, my little guy wants to get a different guitar as he is getting too big for the starter one I bought for him.

I guess I will have to wait about a week and see what the deal is.....

 

[azazael]

When will these be in shops??

 

[marantz1300]

Volunteers

You obviously need these field tested befor the press and general public lay hands on them .Right.I volunteer my services.Send me a Ax20 Please.

 

[MadeInCali]

Sad development

I know that Ernie Ball figures it has to do this from a business perspective. But it was sure great that EB/MM was producing instruments solely in the USA. Anytime I have seen an EB/MM instrument, I've known it was made here. Now EB/MM has done what the big guys have done by having instruments made overseas. At least the brand will be Sterling instead of Ernie Ball / Music Man. But still -- in my opinion it cheapens the EB/MM name. And now EB is going to have to change this great mission statement regarding the Ball Family Reserve line:

The Ball family is the last of a dying breed, a family business making guitars and basses exclusively in the United States.

Yes, this is sad indeed. That leaves Mr. Hall down in Santa Ana as the last holdout!

I wish the Sterling line well, but wish it wasn't happening.

MadeInCali

 

[RocketRalf]

I know that Ernie Ball figures it has to do this from a business perspective. But it was sure great that EB/MM was producing instruments solely in the USA. Anytime I have seen an EB/MM instrument, I've known it was made here. Now EB/MM has done what the big guys have done by having instruments made overseas. At least the brand will be Sterling instead of Ernie Ball / Music Man. But still -- in my opinion it cheapens the EB/MM name. And now EB is going to have to change this great mission statement regarding the Ball Family Reserve line:



Yes, this is sad indeed. That leaves Mr. Hall down in Santa Ana as the last holdout!

I wish the Sterling line well, but wish it wasn't happening.

MadeInCali

1)Welcome to the Forum

2)Like you said these are not EBMM. And they're not built by the EB family. This is a licensing of the designs of the guitars and basses to the Park family so they can build quality approved products to help get rid of unlicensed copies that hurt the EB brand AND provide a more affordable quality instrument for beginners, aficionados or just anyone on a budget who wants a quality instrument designed with wits. EBMM standard and BFR models are still exclusively made in the USA, so I don't think that line is wrong, nor do I see anything bad about this new Sterling line of instruments.

 

[whitestrat]

What a troll...

 

[KoreyD]

I know that Ernie Ball figures it has to do this from a business perspective. But it was sure great that EB/MM was producing instruments solely in the USA. Anytime I have seen an EB/MM instrument, I've known it was made here. Now EB/MM has done what the big guys have done by having instruments made overseas. At least the brand will be Sterling instead of Ernie Ball / Music Man. But still -- in my opinion it cheapens the EB/MM name. And now EB is going to have to change this great mission statement regarding the Ball Family Reserve line:



Yes, this is sad indeed. That leaves Mr. Hall down in Santa Ana as the last holdout!

I wish the Sterling line well, but wish it wasn't happening.

MadeInCali

We're all entitled to our opinions. That said, I don't find this "sad" at all. As a matter of fact, I think it's a rather brilliant move. I doubt I'll ever buy a Sterling, but I believe that they will help insure EBMM is around for a long, long time (so we can keep buying those "made in California" guitars we love)!

 

[mesavox]

I know that Ernie Ball figures it has to do this from a business perspective. But it was sure great that EB/MM was producing instruments solely in the USA. Anytime I have seen an EB/MM instrument, I've known it was made here. Now EB/MM has done what the big guys have done by having instruments made overseas. At least the brand will be Sterling instead of Ernie Ball / Music Man. But still -- in my opinion it cheapens the EB/MM name. And now EB is going to have to change this great mission statement regarding the Ball Family Reserve line:



Yes, this is sad indeed. That leaves Mr. Hall down in Santa Ana as the last holdout!

I wish the Sterling line well, but wish it wasn't happening.

MadeInCali

I'm sorry but this makes no sense even in terms of American made loyalty. Shall we get into discussion about the CRAP made in this country? Or maybe discussion about the history of importation in this country in general in terms of tariff wars both statewide and nationwide? Last I checked it was one of the major contributors to South Carlina's nullification in 1836 as well as its succession from the union just a few years later that caused... yep, the Civil war)

These sorts of discussions really start tearing down the supposed American made superiority ideas. Stuff is either good or it is not. A good craftsman either does good work or not.

Music Man instruments are not great just because they are made here. They're great because the people that make them care about what they do... and just happen to be here. Really, do our foreign forum members give a crap that they are US made? No, the extra taxes they pay and exchange rates and whatnot probably make them wish they weren't made here. Is the instrument less great there?

How about this...

Why does this licensing thing "cheapen" as you say, the Music Man line? Doesn't it in fact set it apart even further as an upper end instrument? Wait... my point is coming...

Gibsons are cheapened by Epiphone? Hmmm... I didn't think so. Epiphones have historically made people want Gibsons even more. Kind of like... getting imitation crab and looking down to that fancy fish place and craving the real thing. Nothing wrong with imitation crab... I LOVE it... but there is NOTHING like real crabs legs. Oh my.

Squires cheapened Fender? This gets even better... MIM Fenders cheapened Custom shop Fenders? No they didn't. In fact, you say Fender to most people and they go ho hum... you say Custom Shop Fender to them and they go... Oh... what are they up to?

Ok... so maybe some high school kids get a MIM Fender and their buddies freak out about how cool it is to have a FENDER. Sure, they don't realize it's not the same as a USA or Custom shop... but the rest of us are gong... "yeah that's nice kid" so we don't discourage them and go back to the custom shop webpage to see what's really up at Fender.

Granted... they are so corporate now that it is a different thing, but still.. A custom shop Fender is something that most Fender buyers cannot get. If none of the less expensive versions existed, how long would there be a Fender custom shop? Obviously I can't give you an answer, but I can make a rather historically educated guess that they would not be anything close to the company they are today if they didn't diversify.

Music Man isn't even doing that... not in house company wise anyway. Well, that is, this doesn't seem to be an outsourcing deal like Schecter and ESP, but rather a licensing deal like Fender and... well, whatever company it is that you can buy Strat replacement necks from.. or Warmoth where you can buy the strat headstock shape and not some funky looking offset version that looks drunk.

The problem here is that Music Man is a company that sells a lot of guitars but doesn't sell quite past that critical mass point where they can become a megamonster company building a gabillion guitars a month. That is, they can't just throw more product out into the market knowing that a zillion people will buy them. Why? Well, no matter how good the stuff is... an image like Fender or Gibson comes with... well, 50 some odd years of being in the hands of legends like Buddy Holly, George Harrison, BB King, David Gilmour, Gary Moore, Slash, Yngwie Malmsteen, Ritchie Blackmore, Angus Young, Eric Clapton, Tony Iommi, ... do I need to go on?

So, Music Man does what it's good at. blending production run with handmade in a way that they can build enough guitars to meet a very healthy demand, while doing it with a quality VERY uncommon to their price points.

As for that mission statement. You said it YOURSELF sir... it's for the BFR line. What does it have to do with other lines? And, you could read a little closer and find out what you're talking about... these guitars are not built by the Ernie Ball family anyway. (Sterlings that is) They're being taken care of by the Park family. You might have heard of them...

One final thing. Do the new cheap Hamer Californians cheapen the old Californians? Um... NO WAY. People revere those old beauties. Not talking prices. They'll rise and fall... cheapening in your context doesn't have anything to do with resale value. It has to do with someone going... "dang that's a genuine XYZ guitar!!!"

Seems to me, if anything, now people will be having even more reason to be excited at a genuine Music Man.

Although, where was your post when OLP got the license? When you see people looking through Ebay going..."Oh check that Ax... oh waith.. it's an OLP.... next... ah ha... there's the real deal." it's pretty obvious that nothing has cheapened anything.

Thank you for introducing yourself to the forum with such an opinionated post. I'm sure Mr. Paul Reed Smith is interested in hearing your thoughts on the crazy successful SE line. You better hurry and tell him before he ruins his company.

 

[Big Poppa]

Look I understand surface thinking. I understand forming a strong position with no vested interest. Its easy for someone who doesnt have to invest in replacing machines...doesnt have escalating payroll...raw material surcharges to take the polyanna position that we cannot liscense our stuff. LEt others sell stingray copies. I also understand that If I dont address lower price points other people do...I would love to be able to say "I only want to do this" but inorder to insure the survival and to make sure that we reap what we have sewn I find the best family that makes the best imported guitar and tell them" go for it.." We get approval on colors, models, price point, and most importantly QUALITY.

 

[MadeInCali]

Nope

Sorry for starting out here on the forums with such an opinionated post -- maybe I should have run it by the Elect here first.

I stand by what I wrote, which was my opinion. I think the Sterling line can only dilute the EB/MM brand. I note that I am an EB/MM fan..I've owned a Sterling fretless bass for 15 years, bought new and played hard since.

Mesavox -- your arguments are are disturbingly pro-globalization. It seems that to you workers are all fungible and that brand trumps everything else. I ask you, why is it that so many great guitar companies (Fender, Rickenbacker, G&L, EB/MM, etc.) were born and clustered in SoCal? Think it through please.

Some random points:

Hamer has always made a quality instrument, which also has about the worst resale value around. Walk into a music store that carries Hamer USA and the Hamer import lines. They all look the same. See someone playing a Hamer on stage -- better get your bifocals to see if there is a small "USA" next to Hamer on the name plate. All those imports (which in the opinion of Jol Dantzig DID cheapen the Hamer brand) killed the resale value of Hamer USA models. They ended up having to sell out to Kamen to survive -- you see imports didn't help them in the long run. Now Hamer is part of Fender.

It is important that you grasp this reality: the Parks are making the instruments *FOR* EB/MM, under contract, at the instigation of EB/MM. They will be distributed by EB/MM and are probably often going to sit side-by-side with EB/MM USA models at a different price point. So now we will have three strata of EB/MM instruments: Sterling/EB-MM/BFR. This is classic MBA marketing strategy: any product should be marketed in one of two ways to maximize returns: Small/Medium/Large or Good/Better/Best. EB/MM is following the Fender (Squire/Fender/Fender Custom Shop) and Gibson (Epiphone/Gibson USA/Gibson Art&Historic) in adopting the Good/Better/Best strategy.

I will reiterate that I think that marketing copy about the BFR line is unfortunately no longer true:

The Ball family is the last of a dying breed, a family business making guitars and basses exclusively in the United States.

The Ball Family owns EB/MM and has produced guitars in their factory in SLO. I would think that the BFR line is probably made in the same factory by many of the same folks as the regular line -- BP ain't working them on his front porch. But now the Ball Family has entered into an agreement to have some of their guitar products made in Korea. This means that the family business will no longer be producing their products exclusively in the USA. Can't have it both ways.

Mesavox, you have argued essentially that any comparison of quality between the USA-made EB/MM instruments and the Korean-made Sterlings is not valid, because you clearly state that American "quality" is a false perception:

Music Man instruments are not great just because they are made here. They're great because the people that make them care about what they do... and just happen to be here.

So you are basically saying that there is no discernible difference between an EB/MM and a Sterling. And so then it follows that spending the extra $$$ on an EB/MM would be insane when the same quality can be had for less in a Sterling. What you are really saying here is that you believe that EB/MM instruments have been historically overpriced, and that the Sterling line represents more honest pricing. That is NOT how I look at it, but I am an informed purchaser.

Uh, what is the purpose of the Civil War "history lesson"? No need to show off here.

 

[MadeInCali]

Look I understand surface thinking. I understand forming a strong position with no vested interest. Its easy for someone who doesnt have to invest in replacing machines...doesnt have escalating payroll...raw material surcharges to take the polyanna position that we cannot liscense our stuff. LEt others sell stingray copies. I also understand that If I dont address lower price points other people do...I would love to be able to say "I only want to do this" but inorder to insure the survival and to make sure that we reap what we have sewn I find the best family that makes the best imported guitar and tell them" go for it.." We get approval on colors, models, price point, and most importantly QUALITY.

I do have a vested interest, because I am the consumer.

It is not polyanna for a consumer of your products to bemoan a move to foreign production. I understand that this is a business decision and also that it is not precedent-setting. I reiterate that I think it is sad that economics are such that you have felt the need to take this course of action, but apparently you cannot compete at certain price points with your current resources -- EB/MM is not the only one in that situation, but take caution.

 

[whitestrat]

Does an SE cheapen a PRS?

If the Sterling line brings more revenue to BP and co, and they pour it back into making EBMM guitars even better, then I'm all for it. Honestly, from a marketing standpoint, there's nothing wrong with having a 2nd line or sub brand that offers a more affordable product. It's when you try to make something accessible with the original brand that I would have issue with, like the Sub1. I'm glad they stopped it. The OLP was a nice experiment, but the quality of the guitars weren't exactly hot stuff. If the Sterling is the MM what SE is to PRS, then honestly, there's nowhere for the EBMM brand to go, but up. It will create desirability in the EBMM brand.

 

[marantz1300]

I dont care where its made.If its good, its good.I want an Axis but cant afford one.Ax20 looks good to me.

 

[Luc]

+1 on the previous post. As long as the instruments are well built, play good and sound good, I don't care where they're built. Let's just wait till we can PLAY the guitars, before writing endless rants about whether it's good or not the Sterling line isn't built in the USA, marketing opinions etc.

To be honest, I could care less about the image EBMM has. The MMs *I* got are awesome. That's what counts. Plus, Do you guys really think BP would introduce this line if it would downgrade the image of the American made Music Mans? Don't think so..

Cheers!

 

[Big Poppa]

Owning a bass isnt the vested interest I was referring to. Being a consumer extra choices are nice.

I think you make some very good points. SOme I agree with and others are custom fit to suit your feelings. Thats fine. WHere is the move to foriegn production? Nothing has been moved.....there is another choice in the market.

I cannot make everyone happy. If I count the votes it is about 300-2 that this works. Bingo. If I ignore the copies of our stuff then how can I blame people who capitalize on our designs and efforts? By our inaction we have created an opportunity for them.

Thanks for the MBA reference but I never went to college and there isnt an mba inour employ., But you hit the nail on the head....It's a business.

YOu are dead wrong on who is making what for who. I am not involved in any aspect other than guaranteeing the quality. THe Parks are paying for the right to make these guitars. For them. I dont sell them, collect the money, handle the returns. I am spporting the brand by giving the customers aq quality choice instead of leaving it to the rip off artists.

In the interest of an open dialogue nobody has moderated your hijack. Please next time start a new thread. DOes anyone think madeincali is planning on sticking around?.....I smell agenda. Maybe it was his name.

 

[Dead-Eye]

I do have a vested interest, because I am the consumer.

It is not polyanna for a consumer of your products to bemoan a move to foreign production.

I don't get your point. There were "cheap" licensed foreign produced (that sounds funny coming from a German, doesn't it? ) "EBMMs" before. So how is Sterling a move to foreign production when there was OLP before? And OLP apparently didn't hurt Ernie Ball, so why would Sterling?

 

[koogie2k]

MadeInCali.....the EBMM's will still be made in SLO. That would be in America and the EB line is not moving to foreign production.

The Sterling line is. OLP was the same way and I think it really put a similar product out there at a price point newer players could afford. If they did not like playing, it was not a big $$$ loss to them. Quite a few went from the OLP line to the EBMM line. Hence, good business all the way around. I see the Sterling line doing the same thing.

It seems like in your posts (big words and all...not a slight...I had to break out a dictionary as I am a simple guy) that you are worried the beloved EBMM is going to foreign production. Not the case as Pops stated above.

Before assuming something...best to get all the facts so there is no misconception. You as well as I are customers. Granted. However, we as the consumer do not have the right to tell Pops how to run his business. He has been doing this for a very long time and has been innovative in the musical industry. He knows what he is doing and has a superb team at his side.

The Sterling line is, in my opinion, a great thing. There are too many knock offs out there that are trying to "cash in" on a brand that they don't have permission to replicate. This way, EBMM knows who are making the line and can control it's property as well as they should. This creates a line of musical instruments that are of a quality build and at a price point that could/should bring in more people to enjoy the one thing we here all enjoy..........playing music.

 

[mesavox]

Sorry for starting out here on the forums with such an opinionated post -- maybe I should have run it by the Elect here first.

What elect? You were rude... no one is going to like that. Walk into someone's house and first thing you say is "I hate your furniture." WTF?

Mesavox -- your arguments are are disturbingly pro-globalization. It seems that to you workers are all fungible and that brand trumps everything else. I ask you, why is it that so many great guitar companies (Fender, Rickenbacker, G&L, EB/MM, etc.) were born and clustered in SoCal? Think it through please.

Disturbingly pro-globalization? LOL I hate to break it to you my friend, but it is a global financial market that EB deals in. They sell guitars all over the world. LOTS of them. And again... why is US made so good anyay? Does the US make a car on par with the German makers? Maybe so, but certainly done so with very different marketing and manufacturing points in mind. So, the niche is still very specific to Germany, and foreign made does not cheapen anything. I say again, it's either crap or not. I ask again, shall we discuss the CRAP made in this country?

You never said anything about how all the foreign members of this forum might feel about your USA elitism. They don't give a crap about your fear of globalization. What economics class did you take in college that convinced you that globaliation was a defacto bad thing? Economics is largely theory, and this hasn't been an isolated country since Benjamin Franklin went to France asking for help in the revolution... oh, we weren't even a country then, and before that we weren't isolated either because we traded with any country that England did. One of the biggest problems of the Revolutionary War was that we had never had to supply a war domestically. The 7 years war... we didn't supply it. England sent supplies.

Think about it... why is Andrew Jackson on the 20 dollar bill? The man who nearly single handedly destroyed the US economy before it even really ever got off the ground. Well, it's partly because we still don't know how many of his ideas would have worked if implemented in some different ways. Some argue very well that the ideas were good, but he didn't know how to organize them. Me? I think he was cracked but... LOL

Some random points:

Hamer has always made a quality instrument, which also has about the worst resale value around. Walk into a music store that carries Hamer USA and the Hamer import lines. They all look the same. See someone playing a Hamer on stage -- better get your bifocals to see if there is a small "USA" next to Hamer on the name plate. All those imports (which in the opinion of Jol Dantzig DID cheapen the Hamer brand) killed the resale value of Hamer USA models. They ended up having to sell out to Kamen to survive -- you see imports didn't help them in the long run. Now Hamer is part of Fender.

This is fine but... these Sterlings will have a big Sterling logo on the headstock, not a big Ernie Ball Music Man logo.

As for Hamer... a lot more than Slammer killed... oh wait... Slammer didn't kill them... foreign HAMER did. If your theory is correct. And, if that theory is correct, the 1:1 correlation has nothing to do with Sterlning does it?

It is important that you grasp this reality: the Parks are making the instruments *FOR* EB/MM, under contract, at the instigation of EB/MM. They will be distributed by EB/MM and are probably often going to sit side-by-side with EB/MM USA models at a different price point. So now we will have three strata of EB/MM instruments: Sterling/EB-MM/BFR. This is classic MBA marketing strategy: any product should be marketed in one of two ways to maximize returns: Small/Medium/Large or Good/Better/Best. EB/MM is following the Fender (Squire/Fender/Fender Custom Shop) and Gibson (Epiphone/Gibson USA/Gibson Art&Historic) in adopting the Good/Better/Best strategy.

Important I grasp the reality that you contradict? You say the BFR motto is nullified, yet have just pointed out that there is NO foreign Music Man production whatsoever. So which is it? Foreign made that is the problem (I.e. foreign Hamer) or licensing of any sort (Slammer by Hamer)? They are two different things, and you've even helped illustrate that. Whichever it is... get consistent at least. You're all over the map. Still... Kamen had problems accross the board, and foreign Hamers did not single handly kill them. They were an aerospace company (or whatever they are), not a music instrument company. Things just didn't quite work out for them on all fronts.

I will reiterate that I think that marketing copy about the BFR line is unfortunately no longer true:

I will reiterate again.... You haven't even remotely proven any such thing.

The Ball Family owns EB/MM and has produced guitars in their factory in SLO. I would think that the BFR line is probably made in the same factory by many of the same folks as the regular line -- BP ain't working them on his front porch. But now the Ball Family has entered into an agreement to have some of their guitar products made in Korea. This means that the family business will no longer be producing their products exclusively in the USA. Can't have it both ways.

The BFR line is different than the other lines. PERIOD. Nothing about it says that BFR was created so that ALL Music Mans are this that or the other. It says that BFRs are created to be that. The BFRs WILL be producing their products EXCLUSIVELY in the USA. Once again, the BFR made in USA thing is not about USA being better... I'd bet money no one even remotely thought of that with that slogan. It's important because its saying that its made by the people are vested in the company and those people's employees. Here's where saying you have a vested intest in the company is laughable. If the company folds are you out of a dime?

Mesavox, you have argued essentially that any comparison of quality between the USA-made EB/MM instruments and the Korean-made Sterlings is not valid, because you clearly state that American "quality" is a false perception:



So you are basically saying that there is no discernible difference between an EB/MM and a Sterling. And so then it follows that spending the extra $$$ on an EB/MM would be insane when the same quality can be had for less in a Sterling. What you are really saying here is that you believe that EB/MM instruments have been historically overpriced, and that the Sterling line represents more honest pricing. That is NOT how I look at it, but I am an informed purchaser.

You started off saying one thing, and then put words in my mouth. I said exactly what I said. USA quailty is a false perception. Has nothing to do with whether or not Sterlings are quality. They may be, may not be. I wouldn't have a clue since I've never touched one or even seen one outside a tiny picture on a youtube video.

My whole argument is that there is PLENTY of discernable difference between a MM and a Sterling. Most notably the name on the headstock that I could even see in those tiny pictures on a youtube video.

So, try not putting words in my mouth. I never even hinted that you could get the same quality for less than a Sterling... or did you even bother to read my MIM Fender analogy where the kids are excited and experienced players are saying "that's nice kid"? What about the imitation crab story? I love imitation crab, but I'll never chose it over the real thing if both are catered. I may take both because I still like the imitation, but the only way I'm chosing the imitation over the real thing is if they are not catered and the price varies and I don't have enough for the real thing... and yet I'm still hungry.

Stick to things said and clearly implied. One reason people have responded so negatively to your posts is because you are assuming things, and putting words in their mouths. I was plenty clear enough for you to not have had to go there. As a History student I've essentially been a professional paper writer for 4 years... as a music student I've essentially been in a postion to have to play both my quality instruments, and lesser quality instruments to get by when the quality instruments were stolen, or I needed something for a function I had never had to fill before. I'm a semester away from Suma Cum Laude overall, and I'm a 4.0 in my history classes. My grammer is not perfect here. I don't proofread anything. In fact, it's terrible... but I know how to organize ideas and put them CLEARLY on paper. Putting the words you just tried to put in my mouth proves even more to me that you have no idea what you're really talking about... Is that true? I don't really know, but if you can't stick to the stated words, I have no reason to assume you're not easy target practice for shooting down weak ideas. Assumptions aren't fun are they?

Uh, what is the purpose of the Civil War "history lesson"? No need to show off here.

The purpose was stated.... The financial aspects of the events leading to the war demonstrate that US made elitism has never been true. There was a market then for foreign made textiles and the south didn't like it. People wanted what was better, not what was made here. No need to show off? What do you think you're doing with your anti-globalization rant trying to prove that Music Man is now defacto a cheapened company because YOU say so?

I do have a vested interest, because I am the consumer.

Since it's sitting here, I'll say it again so it has contextual relation to the statement made... If Ernie Ball folds what dime do you lose? You have NO, ZERO, ZILCH vested interest in that company unless you're on the payrol, or on the various bank notes that have been, are, or will be out in the past, present, and future.

It is not polyanna for a consumer of your products to bemoan a move to foreign production. I understand that this is a business decision and also that it is not precedent-setting. I reiterate that I think it is sad that economics are such that you have felt the need to take this course of action, but apparently you cannot compete at certain price points with your current resources -- EB/MM is not the only one in that situation, but take caution.

This is a completely different point than you had ever made previous to it. You went from cheapened to reaction to hard economic times. It sure HAD been a polyanna to bemaon a move to foreign production... you said it several times in yourposts.

Since there has been no move to foreign production, we have nothing to worry about anyway right? Music Mans will still be made in California just like they always have been.

 

[TimSz]

I was going to comment in my oh-so-charming way, but it seems everyone is on this douche all ready. When will people learn that there is a right way and wrong way to voice one's opinion? Tsk tsk tsk. By the way, I hate your furniture.

 

[Smellybum]

LONG SILENCE....

So anyway, about these Sterling guitars....... (Smelly Thread Steering Services TM)


BP will they be shown off NAMM - please please please can we see some production shots when the time comes????


And thread back on track (Invoice on way or a 25th Axis - I'm easy)