Help! MM tremolo question! Need HELP!

[Spudmurphy]

Tightness of trem?
Just thought I’d throw this into the pot …

Lets take the extreme example of a trem block having 12 springs on going to a trem claw screwed right into the body. You’d have to agree that to get the strings to flatten (dive) you’d have to put one hell of a lot of pressure on the trem arm. It’s akin to a “tug of war” with 2 unequal teams – sTrings versus sPrings, with the sPrings easily winning.
Now as you remove a spring, each time, the pressure required on the trem arm will get less and less. You could be down to 3 springs and the pressure required is way way less but it still feels too much. Now you can look at screwing out the trem claw rather than removing another spring – you are still reducing the force required on the trem arm – and the tug of war teams are evening up!!
If you were to take another spring off, the trem plate could now start to lift away from the body and you would have a floating trem, in other words the sTrings team are winning but now the action will be higher because of the new geometry of the saddles. To get the action down would now require a saddle adjustment and maybe a tweak on the truss rod.
That’s what set up is all about a tweak here an adjustment there.
But Kev – is it possible to have “softer Springs” in the "tug of war " analogy? - be gentle with me!!!

 

[DrKev]

But Kev – is it possible to have “softer Springs” in the "tug of war " analogy? - be gentle with me!!!

Yes, it's just like having a weaker 'team member' in a real tug of war.

The thing to remember is this - When a spring stretches, it 'pulls back' with a force that depends only on a) how far it's stretched and b) how strong it is. (With multiple springs, we just add up the strengths and pretend it's one bigger spring). It's the same force that we need to stretch that spring by the same amount.

When we push down on the trem arm, the springs are being stretched. How hard we need to push depends on, how far we stretch, how strong those springs are, and how many of the there are.

Now, think of a door on a hinge, being pulled from both sides. This is just like a floating trem. When the forces are balanced, it's pulled equally hard from both sides, and won't move.

If I want to move the door, I have to put in an extra force. The amount of force I need depends on how far the springs on the other side of the door will be stretched and on how strong they are. Now we always move our trem arm the same way, so the extension is always about the same, and so we only need to worry about how strong they are. More or stronger springs will need more force to make our trem move and so it will feel stiffer.

Now let's add a 'stop' or block to one side of the door. This like screwing the trem down to the body. The door can't move, no matter how strong the springs on that side are pulling. I can screw the claw in further, the springs are pulling harder but the door still dosn't move. But now I have to overcome that extra pull if I want to move the door the other direction. In a non-floating situation, how far the claw is screwed can make things feel even stiffer again.

 

[Spudmurphy]

ok DrK - yeah I like the door example.
So lets say that I have a trem, non floating using standard springs and the trem claw is screwed half way in.

I see an advert for "softer Black springs" and buy and install them. As the springs are softer the trem now starts to float and I don't want that. So I screw the trem claw in, therefore get more spring tension and the trem no longer floats.

Wouldn't I now be back to square 1?
I'm just interested as it's good to talk to somebody who understands the physics behind this.

 

[DrKev]

I see an advert for "softer Black springs" and buy and install them. As the springs are softer the trem now starts to float and I don't want that. So I screw the trem claw in, therefore get more spring tension and the trem no longer floats.

Wouldn't I now be back to square 1?

No, because even with the bridge back to non-floating, the force you need to deflect the bridge still depends on the strength of the springs.

I think.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Hee hee nice one Kev !!

I think it's snake oil personally, but interested in anybody advising me otherwise

 

[Spudmurphy]

was thinking about this. Cars use suspension springs augmented with hydraulics providing a "progressive" dampening effect. So thinking outside the box, how about trem springs with hydraulics, or do away with springs all together and just have hydraulics - or is there such a device already? Do I care? I'm happy with springs just as they are.

 

[beej]

You wouldn't really want to dampen the trem springs like that. You'd get slower dives (there'd be more inertia pushing the bar down), a slower return to pitch and the elimination of the 'warble' when you snap the trem. But hey, might make for some cool effects.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Hi, guys! I'm back here again with some very good news!
I've tried on my MM black Fender springs, set them to /|\ and OMG! That's works fantastic to me!
Now, the overall feel of the tremolo is OK, now I can bend a lot more easier, and I can go an 1 octave down and 1,5-2 steps up! With the 9s strings and 3 Fender springs I have now almost the feel of a Gibson LP with 10s on it!
So, that's a Happy Ended story for me!
There's some photos of final result.

 

[Spudmurphy]

Glad it all worked out for ya and thanks for the update.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Glad it all worked out for ya and thanks for the update.

You're welcome, Spudmurphy!

 

[DrKev]

Awesome! great news!

 

[psychoguitarist]

Well, maybe, it's a complex thing to think about. The ex-physicist in me doesn't quite see it that way. With angled springs, I see two springs that are stretched longer, and therefore have a greater pulling force. Think a combination of Pythagoras's a²+b²=c² and Hookes law (force proportional to extension) and you'll see what I mean. I think it's like adding two more stiffer springs, compared to three parallel. But of course the initial positions are different and strings are stretched to differing degrees so that complicates things further.

Maybe someday in the next week I'll get around to figuring this out and maybe making a little paper of it but I often say that and don't. So bug me about again in a week! In the mean time, try some things out yourself, all of you, and report back. Let's turn it into a little project and I need need some data!

Yes! Thanks, DrKev! Btw, are you figuring this things about experimenting with the springs in our "little project"? ;-)

 

[psychoguitarist]

Hi, guys! Anyone knows here which kind of brand MM using on volume and tone pots for their guitars, especially JP BFR. My volume pot is almost fallen down, and I need to replace it. Maybe they're DiMarzio's pots? Thanks.

 

[threeminutesboy]

Hi, guys! Anyone knows here which kind of brand MM using on volume and tone pots for their guitars, especially JP BFR. My volume pot is almost fallen down, and I need to replace it. Maybe they're DiMarzio's pots? Thanks.

Try to contact Customer Service, they surely have the answer

 

[psychoguitarist]

Try to contact Customer Service, they surely have the answer

Yes, I tried this and they told me "that info is proprietary."

 

[DrKev]

Any pot of the right size will work fine. It's not a problem.

 

[psychoguitarist]

Any pot of the right size will work fine. It's not a problem.

OK, but which size are these? They are smaller than Gibson pots, right?

 

[beej]

They should be 500k pots, probably made by CTS (who make most pots). You can buy direct replacements from EBMM or one of their distributors (if you're not in the US).

 

[psychoguitarist]

They should be 500k pots, probably made by CTS (who make most pots). You can buy direct replacements from EBMM or one of their distributors (if you're not in the US).

Thanks! But where I can buy replacements from EBMM? From custom service?
I also check, that my pots in JP BFR are not made by CTS, because my are mini 500 K pots, which CTS don't make (with Housing diameter 5/8 " (15.88mm)) like these, made by ALPHA: STEWMAC.COM : Mini Control Pot

 

[beej]

Yes, email the customer service guys- they should be able to sell you a replacement, or put you in touch with the local distributor.