MM90 PU Replacement Question

[jpoprock]

Heys! It's been a while. I'm still madly in love w/ my EBMM's. It seems that my axe of choice is my ES JP6. I sold my MD JP6 which was fully loaded (and with the D-sonic PU) instead of the ES simply because the ES has "a sound" to it that I just couldn't get with the MD. It's a "mojo" thing I guess. The MD was the coolest guitar EVER, but at the end of the day, the ES just had something over the MD that said, "PLAY ME NOW!" So, I gig with that one regularly.

My Luke is still awesome. I love that thing. Sometimes I think, "boy, I sure could use the cash..." and that one seems to be the one that I would part with, but then when I play it, I snap to my senses! That top... oh baby!

But you know that ASS LE w/ the MM90's I have? Well, I tried to sell it here, and had ZERO takers. I can't figure out why either. Maybe it was the price? Timing? I don't know. As you may know, the case didn't latch right, and it FELL OUT onto gravel and got some gouges on the back. Thank GOD it wasn't on the front. It's really not that bad, but I was SICK about it. It was dead mint too.

So.... I'm trying to fall in love with the MM90's, and I'm having a tough time. I LOVE the guitar itself. It's wild how many guys love those PU's, yet I'm having a tough time with them (and I'm not that picky). My buddy has some P90's in his 1974 LP DLX, and they DESTROY my MM90's. They are the sound I want. His are old and hand wound by Seymour himself though. I've investigated the Bare Knuckle PU's, but they are kind of expensive. I have no problem spending that kind of money on good PU's, but since I don't really know what to expect from P90's, I don't want to in this case.

Since I'm in a rock band, I like that warm hot ratty P90 sound (but not the 60cycle hum!). Now, last night we played a low volume, instrumental dinner music set, and I was on a light crunch setting, and thought the guitar sounded wonderful. But in most cases, I play much louder and with a more aggressive sound.

saw the Dimarzio Super Distortion P90's, and though those would probably be an ok choice. But whatever I choose, the question is... if I replace just the bridge PU with something else, will the Silent Circuit still work? Do I have to replace both PU's to get it to work, or do they have to be EBMM Pu's in order to work at all with the SC?

Also, what about P-100's? Will they fit in the cavity? And aren't P-100's supposed to be hum cancelling?

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Jason

 

[DaveB]

The DiMarzio Super Distortion P90s are deeper than the MM90s, so to replace one at the bridge requires some routing......

Dave

 

[mbgreene]

It's horses for courses. The MM90's are not as aggressively voiced as a Gibson style P-90, but I believe they are clearer and retain more single coil sparkle with just enough juice to keep them out of the baseball hall of fame

If you need to here something more agressive for what you wnt them to do I could recommend the Rio Grande Blues Bar, which is what I had in my old Reverend, it had more sizzle than the MM's.

With respect to the silent circuit. It should work but may have to be wired correctly. I believe there were polarity or related issues with others who posted about swapping their single coils in other guitars. You could contact CS about how to wire up replacements or one of the more technical guys like Jedi Master Beej may chime in.

And Dave is right - since they are wound in house by EBMM and routed to fit - sizing issues may come up with any replacement. Make sure you measure and get specs when researching.

Good Luck

 

[jpoprock]

Thanks guys. Man... that blows about the sizing though. You would think that at most, depth would be an issue, but you'd think that most normal P90's would fit no problem. And probably do.

In the "Why would you want to do that?" Category....

I wonder if I could pay EB to route the PU's out for Humbuckers... since they have the templates and stuff set up to do so in house? I'm thinking though, that the MM90's are wider than humbuckers... which would throw that out the door.

I know my way around killer HB's, but not P90's. If this were a HH guitar, I would have already solved my problem.

I'm gonna take the battery out of the compartment and test to see if the SC is mucking up the sound. It shouldn't be, but you never know.

And yeah, since I don't want a bright clean single coil sound, these are obviously not working for me. To MY ears, the MM90's (in this guitar at least), sound sorta flat and UNlively. But that's just me. Everyone hears something different...


Thanks!
Jason

 

[mbgreene]

You may want to check out this thread where Fred just put a P-90 sized bucker in the bridge of his ASS (with pictures)
http://www.ernieball.com/forums/music-man-guitars/30962-modifed-my-axis-mm90.html

I wonder if I could pay EB to route the PU's out for Humbuckers... since they have the templates and stuff set up to do so in house? I'm thinking though, that the MM90's are wider than humbuckers... which would throw that out the door.

EB will do repairs but only to factory specs - they won't do mods on there own instruments. You'd probably have to go to a local tech/luthier.

 

[Sweat]

Yep that is a great mod, I did the same thing to mine, pics are somewhere on the forum, got the inspiration from Fred doing it, sounds great and not hard to do!

You may want to check out this thread where Fred just put a P-90 sized bucker in the bridge of his ASS (with pictures)
http://www.ernieball.com/forums/music-man-guitars/30962-modifed-my-axis-mm90.html



EB will do repairs but only to factory specs - they won't do mods on there own instruments. You'd probably have to go to a local tech/luthier.

 

[mbgreene]

Yep that is a great mod, I did the same thing to mine, pics are somewhere on the forum, got the inspiration from Fred doing it, sounds great and not hard to do!

Here's fing's mod - in sexy BCB

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/music-man-guitars/31685-bunny-ass-mods.html

 

[PugNinjas]

I think Robelinda said he liked the way the MM90's sounded in the AL better than in his ASS

 

[beej]

You can definitely replace the p'ups ... I'm sure you can find something to fit with the zillions of vendors out there these days. (I prefer a lot of the Bill Lawrence offerings, myself.)

If you replace with P90s or singles, you can probably use the Silent Circuit. It'll work with any pickups, but how effective it is at noise canceling really depends on the strength of the pickups. No way to know except to try. Feel free to PM if you have any questions where that's concerned.

That said, if you're really not bonding with the guitar, I'd try to sell it first. Sometimes it's a tough slog ... there seem to be times that nobody's buying guitars and then there's a frenzy. FWIW, I always find eBay to be the best market for selling. I'd just keep at it, you'll find a willing buyer at some point.

 

[darchirnoj]

Also, there is a guy that makes P-90 sized humbuckers and they are handwound/custom wound.
Vintage Vibe Guitars
I had ordered some for a P*S soapbar guitar of mine. When I decided to sell the guitar, I had them removed and sold them on ebay.
They sounded pretty good, but they were vintage voiced. He'll make'em however you want them.
As far as routing, the bridge p/u fit perfectly, but I was limited to how far I could lower the neck pickup because the routing wasn't as deep. This is per as someone else has already pointed out that these are stacked, hence the taller ht. vs. traditional p-90s.
Good luck.

 

[fsmith]

If you love the guitar but aren't bonding with the pickups you can do the mod and drop in an MM90 sized humbucker like me and a couple of others did. It's not for the faint of heart, but it's not rocket science either. If you are patient and handy with a chisel it's about an hour's worth of work. It took longer for the paint to dry in the pickup cavity than it did to carve it out.

I have another MM90 SS that should arrive on Tuesday that I will probably leave stock. I was just looking for something a little different with the black SS. The DLX pickup was a great replacement. Not quite as hot as my humbucker SS's, but a little more than the stock MM90. Cleans up really nice but can get dirty if needed. Very full sounding.

The only drawback is that if you are considering selling the guitar down the road you know the story on trying to sell modifed EB's. It can be a tough sell.

 

[eyesonly]

And yeah, since I don't want a bright clean single coil sound, these are obviously not working for me. To MY ears, the MM90's (in this guitar at least), sound sorta flat and UNlively. But that's just me. Everyone hears something different...
Jason

I think you are right on the money. I have an Axis MM90. I used to own a Gibson Les Paul Junior and a couple of specials. I thought an EBMM will cut out some noise which sounded like a good idea. I found one selling on eBay so thought ok try that out.


I have never had a guitar that I immediately disliked as much as the Axis Super Sport MM90. Absolute garbage came to mind.

In the flesh these are tiny guitars. The body is shorter than a Les Paul and they are thin sounding. It's similar to the Gibson LP DC with chambered body in that they don't have enough body wood to give a decent depth of sound and that's just what these are like. I had an LP DC Standard AAA flame top I tried a number of different pickup sets in it. Then I put the originals back in and sold it.

I am pretty disappointed in what I thought would be a great choice for a P90 type guitar. The pickups are just not cutting it either. They have a lot of that trebly noisey Fender thing going on and are really not a Gibson sound. Simply put there is no fatness to the sound, they are thin and spikey rather than fat and smooth.

I very much like my Gibson's and don't like the thick neck on the EBMM. I don't like the way the neck is not angled either. Very uncomfortable, while not as clunky as a Fender you can certainly feel the Fender in it.

You really have to own a guitar to understand what it's all about. I have never had the right impression of a guitar in a guitar store. I am glad I tried the EBMM but no matter how much I try to like it it's just not for me.

Seymour Duncan make some P90's of different specs from Vintage to more upper mids to full range. They mention sizing on their website. I thought about using some of these but really the guitar isn't right to begin with.

 

[andynpeters]

I think you are right on the money. I have an Axis MM90. I used to own a Gibson Les Paul Junior and a couple of specials. I thought an EBMM will cut out some noise which sounded like a good idea. I found one selling on eBay so thought ok try that out.


I have never had a guitar that I immediately disliked as much as the Axis Super Sport MM90. Absolute garbage came to mind.

In the flesh these are tiny guitars. The body is shorter than a Les Paul and they are thin sounding. It's similar to the Gibson LP DC with chambered body in that they don't have enough body wood to give a decent depth of sound and that's just what these are like. I had an LP DC Standard AAA flame top I tried a number of different pickup sets in it. Then I put the originals back in and sold it.

I am pretty disappointed in what I thought would be a great choice for a P90 type guitar. The pickups are just not cutting it either. They have a lot of that trebly noisey Fender thing going on and are really not a Gibson sound. Simply put there is no fatness to the sound, they are thin and spikey rather than fat and smooth.

I very much like my Gibson's and don't like the thick neck on the EBMM. I don't like the way the neck is not angled either. Very uncomfortable, while not as clunky as a Fender you can certainly feel the Fender in it.

You really have to own a guitar to understand what it's all about. I have never had the right impression of a guitar in a guitar store. I am glad I tried the EBMM but no matter how much I try to like it it's just not for me.

Seymour Duncan make some P90's of different specs from Vintage to more upper mids to full range. They mention sizing on their website. I thought about using some of these but really the guitar isn't right to begin with.

One man's meat I guess, there are plenty of people on here who swear by their Axes, and most of your criticisms seem to be due to not trying before buying eg the lack of angled neck, the size, the slightly Fenderish rather than Gibson feel.

I don't think you'll find many to agree with "the guitar isn't right to begin with" and "absolute garbage" mind you. If you very much like your Gibsons you should stick with them.

 

[Jimmyb]

sigh....

 

[beej]

I feel exactly the opposite way to eyesonly.

I wasn't the least bit interested in the Axis/MM90 combination. But one day I played it and fell madly in love. The Ash body with the meaty MM90 pickups is heaven.

If you're going to just run it into a high gain amp and dime the dials then it's probably not for you, though. But clean or with a bit of dirt, these things flat out rock. To me, it's a killer, killer blues axe.

 

[fsmith]

I have never had a guitar that I immediately disliked as much as the Axis Super Sport MM90. Absolute garbage came to mind.

In the flesh these are tiny guitars. The body is shorter than a Les Paul and they are thin sounding. It's similar to the Gibson LP DC with chambered body in that they don't have enough body wood to give a decent depth of sound and that's just what these are like. I had an LP DC Standard AAA flame top I tried a number of different pickup sets in it. Then I put the originals back in and sold it.

I am pretty disappointed in what I thought would be a great choice for a P90 type guitar. The pickups are just not cutting it either. They have a lot of that trebly noisey Fender thing going on and are really not a Gibson sound. Simply put there is no fatness to the sound, they are thin and spikey rather than fat and smooth.

Wow. Am I missing something here? Apparently I don't know jack about tone and I just bought 4 of them...

I guess I'll end up smoking some ribs with them since no one is gonna buy these dogs now that the truth is out.

Absolute garbage?!?!?!?! Whatever.

 

[dmullen]

Hey Fred...I'll come over and throw some rosewood in the smoker from my MM90 Axis SS. I mean it's absolute garbage anyway and I bet it would do wonders for the ribs.

 

[jpoprock]

Well for me, I'm REAL happy with the guitar itself. I love the neck, the feel, the size, the color, everything. I swear by Music Mans, which is why I have three of them! I'm a Gibson guy too though. Gibsons, Fenders, MM's... doesn't matter. If the guitar feels and plays great, than you've got something there.

Guitars are a lot like cars I think. A guitar body and neck is like the car shell, and the PU's are the engine. The car will really move with a great engine, but the car's aerodynamics and weight can really help the engine do it's job. And if the car itself is awesome but it doesn't "squeal the tires" to your liking, you can put a new engine it if you want. However, if the car itself is heavy, not a good color, is too long, or too short, has rust, then maybe it's not worth putting a new engine in? Personally, I think I've got a killer car here, I'm just not too sure about the engine. So I'm looking for a new one to put in it.

And as you all well know, tone, playing skill, amp sounds, etc.. it's all subjective. I can't even begin to tell you all the reviews and opinions that I've read in forums, that describe something to be so awesome only for me to buy it and find it was perhaps the WORST thing ever. Many guys seemingly know "everything there is to know" about tone, and yet when you finally hear an audio clip, they wouldn't know good tone if it hit them in the face. OVER AND OVER do I run into this. Unless I know you, and you know me, and we both know and trust that what our ears hear are consistent, then I take opinions on the net with a grain of salt. It's a lesson I had to learn the hard way for sure. It's great to read HC reviews, etc, just to kinda get a "feel" for something. But unless you know and trust the reviewer, you have to be very careful. There are tons of guys out there that have a lot of gear "knowledge", but have no real world experience with any of it.

I'm always surprised of these "experts" out there giving advice and opinions, yet they don't even play in a band! You discover that they never leave the bedroom or play with other guys. Or even better, when you discover that the guy that has 2,000 posts, and has been giving his advice or opinions on amps/tone/guitars/pickups, is really a 17 year old kid that's been playing guitar for about three years. Sure, he may be a fine player, but he never leaves the bedroom. His knowledge comes from reading catalogs while on the crapper, or from whatever his doofas buddy at Guitar Center says. Yet he's considered to be some authority in the GuitarLovers forum. HA!! (That is a made up scenario btw, but I have no doubt it's true). That's all fine and dandy, but playing a guitar onstage with a band all the time verses playing it in the bedroom are two completely different things. Playing your amp at home, at whatever volume, is fine. But get it in a live environment, where different stages and rooms sound different, and you're fighting for sound space with other guys, then your amp will not sound the same. And there are too many bedroom musicians out there that have no clue what their gear will do in a live setting. And they are trying to give me advice? I don't think so!

So for all of you guys that love the MM90 PU's, then good for you! Who am I to critisize what your ears hear. The MM90's could be producing the best sound you've ever heard to your ears, but not to mine. We don't have the same touch, the same hands, the same style, etc. So how can we really know just how the guitar is going to sound from one guy to another? We can't. The good thing is, MM guitars are very very consistent. Some have a little moe mojo than others, but that's what makes guitars so special. But the simple fact is, MM guitars are of consistent quality and build. To me, they are a great example of the kind of guitar you can buy having never played the one your actually buying. You can't do that with a lot of Fenders and Gibsons.

Another thing I want to say is, even though I may seem critical of other people's opinions, I'm not really. In fact, I believe that I ASKED for feedback and opinions on the MM90's. But I also run these opinions thru my own personal "filter", and in the end, may not have gotten any advice that felt I could trust. But that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate what others had to say.

And also.... how can YOU guys be so sure that *I* am not some kind of tone idiot? Perhaps I'm the one with rotten ears? Touche! You can't I guess. I would literally have to mic up my amp, and play specific riffs and notes, then track my SG Special, then track my buddies LP Deluxe, all with the same settings, the exact same patterns and licks, then try and explain what I'm going for, what I like about one sound vs the other, what I don't want and why, etc. And EVEN STILL, there will be guys out there that loathe the sound I'm trying to go for, in favor of the one I'm trying to get rid of. That's because our ears hear what they hear, and one mans trash is another man's treasure. It's as simple as that really. I always hate it when listening to amp/PU/guitar comparison clips, when the guy doing the comparison changes his riffs for each sound. Depending on what you're going for, the right way to do it would be to mic up an amp, dial in the sound you like (hopefully it's a good one), then play a specific riff that you can easily duplicate, for each part and setting. Then repeat. That way you can really tell what's going on. If you play a slow blues lick for one setting, then do some chicken pickin' lick in another, then launch into shred, you really cannot compare what is going on with the sound. Each playing style brings out different nuances. Find a good melodic lick, and play it over and over. Maybe just cut a music bed of a song everyone knows, then play the vocal melody to the song at each setting. Leave the amp alone and don't fart with the settings. THAT is right way to do it. Recording direct could work too, but my guitars sound totally different going direct into my Line 6 Toneport, then into Pro Tools, than they do coming out of my amp. So I'd say it's best to use an amp. Unless you want to hear what something sounds like direct. Heck, doing both would be ideal!

I'm either going to find some replacement P90's that drop right in and go on that "quest". Or I may have to chip away at my PU cavity to get different ones to fit. After reading about what that one guy said about the MM90's vs the SD Deluxe, the more I'm thinking that he and I might be on the same page. But it's still hard to tell. I don't like the idea of chipping away some of the wood of my ASS, but fortunately, it's only a slight bit of depth. It's not like I'm routing out the PU cavity or anything major. Plus, I have the tools to do it properly, so I'm not worried about it. But the bottom line is, I love this guitar and want to keep it. It's a special axe, in my favorite color, and it's ltd edition, not to mention that it's VERY hard to find a Blue Dawn ASS LE with MM90's. As I have said before, I have not actually seen another one, but I know a few more are out there.

Anyway... sorry for the rant!

Jason

 

[jpoprock]

The only drawback is that if you are considering selling the guitar down the road you know the story on trying to sell modifed EB's. It can be a tough sell.

Not to mention one that has a scar such as mine, from it falling out of the case!

Jason

 

[jpoprock]

Also, there is a guy that makes P-90 sized humbuckers and they are handwound/custom wound.
Vintage Vibe Guitars
I had ordered some for a P*S soapbar guitar of mine. When I decided to sell the guitar, I had them removed and sold them on ebay.
They sounded pretty good, but they were vintage voiced. He'll make'em however you want them.
As far as routing, the bridge p/u fit perfectly, but I was limited to how far I could lower the neck pickup because the routing wasn't as deep. This is per as someone else has already pointed out that these are stacked, hence the taller ht. vs. traditional p-90s.
Good luck.

Hey! So, yer saying you bought these:
Soapbar P-90 Size Humbucking Pickups

And they dropped in and fit just fine? That might be really cool. Did yours come with diff mag's to swap in and out? I know of several really great boutique pu builders, but have never heard of this guy. Thanks for the tip!

Jason