Hendog
Well-known member
I actually prefer plain headstocks.
- Thread starter Prosthetic Rec
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Hendog
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Wow, dude. Chill.
Trev
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Well said Boss.
A lot of companies are really struggling now - I recently worked for a well known German bass builder and there was very little profit to be made on their basses/ guitars - the meat and veg was the distribution deals they had on things like strings and pick ups.
It's easy to criticize when you don't know the full story.
Not that I am pretending to know the music retail industry inside out but there are so many factors to consider...
SteveB
Well-known member
FWIW I do have 2 BFR JPs here with color-matched headstocks. They are still in the factory boxes but have been hanging around a while and need to go. Email me for pricing/details. [email protected]
Hmm.. Amethyst *is* my birth stone..
KungFu Grip
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I'm amazed that ANY guitar company can stay operational in this economy.
robelinda2
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Prosthetic Rec
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I think a lot of people misunderstood what I'm upset about
I am not frustrated so much with the "non-matching headstock" issue as I am with the logic behind it. It IS such a small detail- that to curtail it, seemingly for no reason, just doesn't make sense when enough people seem to like it. First I was told the option was discontinued because it was "too difficult to make" (essentially). Now you are telling us that it's more of a pricing issue- which by the way is a better reason for discontinuing it, although I don't understand that either.
$3,000 is a lot of money to spend on a guitar. Another $20 or $50 or however much to get a matching headstock is not going to all of a sudden put it out of my price range or make me no longer want it. So why not just raise the price? The prices were already raised this year and most people are understanding of it "because of the economy". I'm guessing someone with $3k to spend on a git-fiddle probably has $3100 to spend on a git fiddle. Or do you feel the slight price increase is going to shrink your amount of potential customers?
I'm not a guitar luthier, everybody I've asked about the reasoning behind this is stumped, so this is why I'm asking you.
ScoobySteve
Well-known member
I have a full RW neck, so my headstock isn't matching either on my JP. Then again, the RW looks freakishly sick.
Let's just make all the guitars RW necks now. Just kidding.
I can't think of another company that does the matching head stock regularly. Gibby, Fenders, PRS, Ibbys, nope. Maybe just a flat black painted HS. But Natty is hot too.
I understand why a group of people would be upset at the guitar, but I think for every serious guitar player its always function over form. It's the philosophy we had in the automotive tuning industry that I've been working so long in, so I guess its kind of ingrained in me. "Flame stripes don't add horsepower."
Let's just make all the guitars RW necks now. Just kidding.
I can't think of another company that does the matching head stock regularly. Gibby, Fenders, PRS, Ibbys, nope. Maybe just a flat black painted HS.
But Natty is hot too.I understand why a group of people would be upset at the guitar, but I think for every serious guitar player its always function over form. It's the philosophy we had in the automotive tuning industry that I've been working so long in, so I guess its kind of ingrained in me. "Flame stripes don't add horsepower."
Dizzy
Well-known member
I think the main problem was the inconsistency in achieving the required colour match on the Mahogany HS.
Because of the much darker wood (and different grain / shades of each individual piece of wood), an acceptable stain/colour match is going to be much more difficult to achieve.
Therein lies the problems with the cost to EBMM - it's not a constant due to the many variables, and therefore is a headache to assess.
The whole process becomes unviable.
Should EBMM assign a team to keep trying all day long to get an acceptable match on each HS ??
No, it would kill production speed and cost plenty.
Should they spend time and then abandon a completed neck that doesn't meet their QC ?
No, it would kill production speed and cost plenty.
Should EBMM assess which colours are suitable for mahog MHS and continue their production ??
Yep.
Should EBMM assess which colours are NOT suitable for mahog MHS and instead offer an all black HS (which matches the neck finish) ??
Yep.
I think that the MHS is a $200 upcharge just for a simple maple HS.
Therefore, your $100 (upper) estimate for the mahog option is going to be well short.
These guys do a pretty good job and are probably hanging on by the skin of their teeth in the guitar market.
Some decisions won't please all, but hey - it's their decision to make.
Manufacturing issues
While I can't speak specifically for how Music Man produces instruments, I do have a little experience in manufacturing from an operations/IT perspective.
I am the IT Director for my company. We have historically been a very diverse company with heavy truck retail, service, parts, lease, rental, contract maintenance. We have been in business for almost 30 years, have 24 locations in Canada blah blah blah. We are a complex operation.
We bought a manufacturing company with a 30 plus year history about 5 years ago. With the price of oil at $130 plus a barrel, cost was no barrier to our customers in the Alberta oil patch. Then the crash comes and demand dries up. A full order board is empty. People are laid off. Lo and behold, the "inconsequential cost" of all the little bolts, scrap metal, soldering components etc are sitting there not being used. The unused stock IS using up the credit line though. It ties up money and can cause a ripple effect throughout the organization as these little things start to pile up. Companies are not making enough margin to simply cover extraneous expenses and overhead.
The logistics in manufacturing are mind boggling. It may seem to us that "simple matching headstock" should "only cost 50 bucks" - but it might add an additional layer of complexity to the process. It could add several steps of labour or the tying up of an asset that serves multi purposes (maybe the painting area where matching headstocks are made is also being used to paint another a higher margin item - so it's a double hit). We simply don't know and Sterling us under no obligation to give us the gory details.
I do know that this company must be the most forthright company in this industry. For Sterling to come right out and say that it is for cost reduction and not hide behind some BS is admirable. Integrity is the standard set here for a very long time and is one of the reasons I continue to support this company. Instead of dropping the quality of the BFR (and non BFR) and cheaping out on the wood, electronics, finish quality etc - they choose a headstock match. Works for me, and I have choice too support this or not with my purchase decision.
While I can't speak specifically for how Music Man produces instruments, I do have a little experience in manufacturing from an operations/IT perspective.
I am the IT Director for my company. We have historically been a very diverse company with heavy truck retail, service, parts, lease, rental, contract maintenance. We have been in business for almost 30 years, have 24 locations in Canada blah blah blah. We are a complex operation.
We bought a manufacturing company with a 30 plus year history about 5 years ago. With the price of oil at $130 plus a barrel, cost was no barrier to our customers in the Alberta oil patch. Then the crash comes and demand dries up. A full order board is empty. People are laid off. Lo and behold, the "inconsequential cost" of all the little bolts, scrap metal, soldering components etc are sitting there not being used. The unused stock IS using up the credit line though. It ties up money and can cause a ripple effect throughout the organization as these little things start to pile up. Companies are not making enough margin to simply cover extraneous expenses and overhead.
The logistics in manufacturing are mind boggling. It may seem to us that "simple matching headstock" should "only cost 50 bucks" - but it might add an additional layer of complexity to the process. It could add several steps of labour or the tying up of an asset that serves multi purposes (maybe the painting area where matching headstocks are made is also being used to paint another a higher margin item - so it's a double hit). We simply don't know and Sterling us under no obligation to give us the gory details.
I do know that this company must be the most forthright company in this industry. For Sterling to come right out and say that it is for cost reduction and not hide behind some BS is admirable. Integrity is the standard set here for a very long time and is one of the reasons I continue to support this company. Instead of dropping the quality of the BFR (and non BFR) and cheaping out on the wood, electronics, finish quality etc - they choose a headstock match. Works for me, and I have choice too support this or not with my purchase decision.
Big Poppa
Well-known member
I really cannot answer you without raising my blood pressure and pissing you off.
I really want you to know that your first post was very aggressive misinformed and then finally threatening I answered as best I could and now you make assumptions of factory costs and what the public will pay..you must know more than us because we cannot do what you want for the price. Maybe start a factory?
If you feel let down with your present guitar because we had to make a decision based on production then I really think you should sell it...Just not here.
I will for one try to answer...the problem is that you have to have flow.....if you have a process that creates a bottleneck then you either have to try to find a way to make it happen or when you have exhausted all efforts you discontinue the process causing the problem....The cost reduction part is not in materials or labor...we were getting killed from a scheduling point of view.....Purchasing buys parts for a production schedule and every department is held to that schedule with very little margin for error....That is why we can offer over 27 different colors alone and over 120,000 combinations... Each one painted individually...we dont hold batches for lets say 15 purple...if there is an order for purple we make it. THe advanced planning makes it semi possible. Now lets say it makes it though milling, sanding, base coat, more sanding, Painting, drying, sanding buffing and the day its on the set up schedule there is a body but no neck.... the neck didnt pass qc....what do you do? You have to wait two weeks for the new neck and there arent extra stuff to assemble laying around....Every instrument is made to order. If we don thave the order then we dont start it. This is why we had to discontinue recessed neck plates.....there were too many buff throughs...
I have not cut one corner in the materials or processes. I have invested more of my own money to subsidize the factory iand have spent more money on research and development than in any year past.
I really want you to know that your first post was very aggressive misinformed and then finally threatening I answered as best I could and now you make assumptions of factory costs and what the public will pay..you must know more than us because we cannot do what you want for the price. Maybe start a factory?
If you feel let down with your present guitar because we had to make a decision based on production then I really think you should sell it...Just not here.
I will for one try to answer...the problem is that you have to have flow.....if you have a process that creates a bottleneck then you either have to try to find a way to make it happen or when you have exhausted all efforts you discontinue the process causing the problem....The cost reduction part is not in materials or labor...we were getting killed from a scheduling point of view.....Purchasing buys parts for a production schedule and every department is held to that schedule with very little margin for error....That is why we can offer over 27 different colors alone and over 120,000 combinations... Each one painted individually...we dont hold batches for lets say 15 purple...if there is an order for purple we make it. THe advanced planning makes it semi possible. Now lets say it makes it though milling, sanding, base coat, more sanding, Painting, drying, sanding buffing and the day its on the set up schedule there is a body but no neck.... the neck didnt pass qc....what do you do? You have to wait two weeks for the new neck and there arent extra stuff to assemble laying around....Every instrument is made to order. If we don thave the order then we dont start it. This is why we had to discontinue recessed neck plates.....there were too many buff throughs...
I have not cut one corner in the materials or processes. I have invested more of my own money to subsidize the factory iand have spent more money on research and development than in any year past.
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Prosthetic Rec
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First of all I have to say nothing I have said can be/should be construed as threatening (unless you took my comment about selling my guitars, as threatening). I find it rather insulting that you would accuse me of such a thing. That being said, interpretation is lost over the internet, so before this gets out of hand anymore- none of the following should be taken as hostile, aggressive, or threatening.
My first post wasn't misinformed- as I only asked a question.
My second post was a response to what other posters were saying regarding the reasoning behind stopping the matching HS. I was going off what information was provided to me- nobody said anything about the cost of production up to that point.
I did make an assumption of what it may cost just to use it as an example. I also said, "I am not a guitar luthier, this is why I'm asking you." Why would you take offense to that?
Nobody has explained why you can continue to do matching headstocks for some finishes, when for others it's "a nightmare". I'm not a luthier- I don't know why this is, and neither does anybody else I've asked. I legitimately would like to know- this isn't me being hostile or aggressive.
I understand how cost of production works, I have a bachelors in Business, so ix-nay on the condescension-aye there chet
. I am part of the public and I talk to many people who want to buy or have bought EBMM JP's - so why is it so far-fetched to think I know what they're willing to pay?
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Dizzy
Well-known member
Well, as you've got a bachelors in business I'd have assumed from my very first post (and the many that followed) that you'd be able to link difficult manufacturing processes to increased cost of production, no ??
i.e. : you know that MHS can be done, but it was stopped due to difficulties in getting a match with some colours - so surely it's very obvious that a time / cost / production analysis had rendered the option unviable. (not just because someone said "I give up, this is too hard")
I went on to explain / "spoon-feed" the reasoning in my last post - subsequently confirmed by BP.
(and guess what !?! - I don't have a bachelors in business
)And regarding what people are prepared to pay : you've got to realise that it's not just on an axe-by-axe basis.
Think of the whole problem faced by EBMM :
If EBMM fall behind schedule because there's a bottleneck happening while the neck team is struggling with a batch of MHS's, the labour / downtime / sale loss costs skyrocket - will they be prepared to pay THAT much ?? No way.
Will a buyer be prepared to pay for the the 3 necks that were scrapped (just for THEIR guitar) because they didn't meet QC ?? Nope.
The other option is for EBMM to just whack on a colour and say "she'll be right mate, close enough" - but this mob ain't going to go down that road. They've decided to offer a consistent, high quality, all-black option instead.
Regarding WHY it's hard for some colours and not others :
Maple is a nice, light coloured wood - easy to stain.
On all other reg production EBMM's the maple MHS only has to match the Maple top - easy.
BUT, when you're trying to match a Mahogany stain with a maple one it's a different ball game.
You're dealing with a predominantly brown wood, and trying to obtain a rich blue / purple etc etc..... not easy.
But some of the more natural / browny / reddy colours are going to be possible - hence they are still available.
Try getting a nice white piece of paper, and stain it with a rich blue....... mmm, lovely.
Now use that same rich blue on a brown piece of paper.......... mmmmmmm dog poo.
I think you've got your answers now - hopefully you can take a deep breath and keep that gem of an axe you've got
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ScoobySteve
Well-known member
Whoa whoa, so there is an all black option? Sorry if I sound like the kid in classed that ditched Mon-Thurs then asks what happened on Fri.
Dizzy
Well-known member
Whoa whoa, so there is an all black option? Sorry if I sound like the kid in classed that ditched Mon-Thurs then asks what happened on Fri.
Slow down and read more closely Stevie boy - we're talking about the Mahogany HS's only (i.e JP BFR)
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ScoobySteve
Well-known member
Read more closely Stevie boy - we're talking about the Mahogany HS's only (i.e JP BFR)
I know I know! Haha, just for the JP BFR. With the exception of the Tobacco Burst. Since the Koa is still technically a form of tobacco burst, the Koa will remain with a painted Headstock right?
I guess this only affects JP BFR types, and nothing else. No big deal at all, considering all the other guitars and bazillion options. Just get Koa or Tobacco.
bonez
Well-known member
GO BP! lol standing up for his company how many other company's do you see doing that ? they'd just say tough take it as is, no wait they wouldn't ever bother telling you ha! i love you guys
how many other company's do you see doing that ? they'd just say tough take it as is, no wait they wouldn't ever bother telling you ha! i love you guys
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bkrumme
Well-known member
Wow. All of this over a COLOR!
I don't care if the headstock on my BFR is black or color matched. It's the same guitar which feels and sounds the same no matter whether the headstock is painted to match the body color or is only black. The same care is taken to produce a high quality instrument. I play EBMM guitars because of the high quality, playability, and sound of the instruments. Not because of the color.
I don't care if the headstock on my BFR is black or color matched. It's the same guitar which feels and sounds the same no matter whether the headstock is painted to match the body color or is only black. The same care is taken to produce a high quality instrument. I play EBMM guitars because of the high quality, playability, and sound of the instruments. Not because of the color.
TonyEVH5150
Well-known member
First of all I have to say nothing I have said can be/should be construed as threatening (unless you took my comment about selling my guitars, as threatening). I find it rather insulting that you would accuse me of such a thing. That being said, interpretation is lost over the internet, so before this gets out of hand anymore- none of the following should be taken as hostile, aggressive, or threatening.
My first post wasn't misinformed- as I only asked a question.
My second post was a response to what other posters were saying regarding the reasoning behind stopping the matching HS. I was going off what information was provided to me- nobody said anything about the cost of production up to that point.
I did make an assumption of what it may cost just to use it as an example. I also said, "I am not a guitar luthier, this is why I'm asking you." Why would you take offense to that?
Nobody has explained why you can continue to do matching headstocks for some finishes, when for others it's "a nightmare". I'm not a luthier- I don't know why this is, and neither does anybody else I've asked. I legitimately would like to know- this isn't me being hostile or aggressive.
I understand how cost of production works, I have a bachelors in Business, so ix-nay on the condescension-aye there chet
I am part of the public and I talk to many people who want to buy or have bought EBMM JP's - so why is it so far-fetched to think I know what they're willing to pay?
Other EBMM guitars are offered with matching headstocks because the color match is more consistent on the materials they are using. For an Axis, you've got a maple top and a maple neck. For say a Silhouette, it's finished in a solid/opaque color, so it's again easy to color match.
With the BFR's, you're trying to stain a light colored piece of maple, and have the same stain match up when put on a darker colored piece of mahoghany. It doesn't work, without changing the stain formula or overlaying a maple veneer on the headstock. Which I'm sure would take more time to research and implement than you think.
Heck, look at the price point. Are any other manufacturers offering a matching headstock on guitars with mahogahny necks? nope . . I can't think of one. Not trying to justify it, just saying that to show that other manufacturers realize that color on a maple top won't match a color on a mahoghany neck.
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