Help! New LIII string tension and bridge question.

[IceCreMan]

Got my new Luke 3 BFR yesterday. Beautiful guitar and awesome fit and finish but....

I know these necks take some getting used to although I do have an EVH Wolfgang (floyd rose bridge) with a similar neck and frets that I'm used to already (although the L3 neck feels even smaller). Here's my issues. I hope someone can steer me in the right direction.

1. String tension is too stiff. Bending is very difficult on this guitar. My Wolf's strings feel like spaghetti compared to these. I'm using EB Hybrid Slinky's (9-46) on the wolf and the L3 came with EB RPS Slinkys (9-42). How can I loosen the tension? It's even worse than my strat.

2. I feel like I'm going to slip over the string when bending.

3. I'd like to lower the bridge angle (get the tail of the bridge closer to the body). I usually deck vintage bridges but I'd like this one to have a little float for Jeff Beck style vibrato. I know how to lower the bridge but I don't want to cause an issue with tuning stability. I can't believe how well it stays in tune after a lot of whammy usage. Amazing.

I really want to love this guitar but it may be going back if I can't resolve these issues.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Lou]

Lukes usually have a 2 spring setup from the factory. IMO, that has the most influence on tension other than string gauge. Since you already have 9s on the guitar see what is happening on yours. You can lower the bridge angle and you will need to set up the guitar properly after doing so. Probably the biggest difference in feel is the string spacing and neck between your two guitars.

 

[IceCreMan]

Lukes usually have a 2 spring setup from the factory. IMO, that has the most influence on tension other than string gauge. Since you already have 9s on the guitar see what is happening on yours. You can lower the bridge angle and you will need to set up the guitar properly after doing so. Probably the biggest difference in feel is the string spacing and neck between your two guitars.

Mine has two springs. The string spacing feels fine it's just the bending and the feeling of slipping over the string that bothers me.

 

[IceCreMan]

I just spoke with a tech at Music Man who stated that if I lower the angle of the bridge (close to decking it) it will ease up on the stiff feeling of the strings. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Tollywood]

I just spoke with a tech at Music Man who stated that if I lower the angle of the bridge (close to decking it) it will ease up on the stiff feeling of the strings. Anyone have any experience with this?

Yes, that is true.

 

[IceCreMan]

Thanks for the confirmation Tollie. I will set it up tonight and see how it goes. Really want to love this guitar.

 

[Tollywood]

Thanks for the confirmation Tollie. I will set it up tonight and see how it goes. Really want to love this guitar.

Please give the Luke III a chance. You will be glad that you did. I find the body and neck to be very comfortable and the boost is really excellent.

 

[IceCreMan]

Please give the Luke III a chance. You will be glad that you did. I find the body and neck to be very comfortable and the boost is really excellent.

I certainly will give it a chance. It is certainly by far the most comfortable body I've ever played and the neck is awesome, I just have to get used to it. Hopefully a set up tonight will really take care of things. Either way I'm going to give it a good week or two of solid playing before making any decisions. It really is the nicest made guitar I've purchased.

 

[Lou]

I love my Luke. Really versatile.

 

[IceCreMan]

Update: I spent about an hour last night bringing the bridge down and getting things re-adjusted (saddles etc.). When I was done I still had enough float to pull up a full step and no more stiff strings. MUCH better now. Bends are no longer a problem and I don't feel like I'm going to slip off the strings. What a difference a little adjustment makes. I played for about an hour and it feels tons better, intonation is perfect and it seems to be holding tune very well after some whammy action.

It'll be getting a full workout at band practice tonight.

I set the action at 4/64" on the 12th fret per Music Man's FAQ. What height does everyone else typically set a Luke III action? Just curious.

Thanks a bunch for the help guys!

 

[Firesource]

Yes, that is true.

Why is that so? Is there a technical explanation, or may I just have to accept that that's the way it works?

 

[DrKev]

Why is that so? Is there a technical explanation, or may I just have to accept that that's the way it works?

Somebody is mistaken. I don't see how it would make any difference. Hold on tight boys and girls, guitar physics is fun!

The strings and springs both pull on the bridge, just like a tug-of-war being played around a corner with two ropes fixed to a door (except one rope is weakly elastic guitar strings and the other is a few stiff trem springs). If the forces (i.e. tensions) from the strings and the springs are different, the bridge will move towards the bigger force (because it's pulled that way). If tensions are balanced the bridge will stay stationary. That means that for a floating bridge, as long it is free to move but stationary the trem springs are necessarily at the same tension as the strings.

With me so far? Cool.

Now let's change the claw position to change the angle of the bridge. Specifically let's imagine we tighten the claw screws. The claw moves backwards, the springs are pulled backwards with it, pulling the bridge with them. That bridge motion stretches the strings a little too. That increases the string tension (raising the pitch). That extra string tension counteracts the extra pull from the springs, perfectly maintaining the balance between spring and string tension, even though the tensions have increased. A change on one side produces a perfect change on the other side to maintain equilibrium. Nice!

But we now have to retune to the strings to maintain standard tuning (because we're no longer in tune). The strings are sharp so we have to loosen them. In doing so there is now less force on the bridge from the strings. This allows the springs to pull the bridge back even more. But the claw, i.e. one end of the springs, does not move, so spring extension now decreases. Less extension means less pull, relieving spring tension and matching the new string tension. Sweet!

We have now successfully changed the angle of the bridge, the strings are in tune so we're at the same string tension as when we started this little tug of war. That also means the same spring tension as when we started. Clearly, adjusting the spring claw to change the angle of the bridge only shifts the physical position of the bridge while the tension of strings and springs stays unchanged. String bending will feel exactly the same.

Now, once the claw is adjusted so that bridge is decked, the bridge is in contact with the guitar top. As we tighten the claw screws a little further the springs are now being stretched but the bridge can't move backwards any more. Greater spring extension = more resistance to string bending. The bridge will move less when we when bend strings and everything will feel stiffer too.

If we tighten the claw screws enough, we can add enough spring tension to completely counter the extra tension we apply when bending strings. In this case the bridge does not move at all when bending and the guitar will feel just like a hard tail. Tightening the springs even more makes no difference at all (other than potentially marking the paintwork by pulling the bridge down into the finish it's resting on, which is why I don't recommend tightening the claw any more than necessary).

 

[luiscesaripad]

Amazing explanation!

 

[ErnieJohn]

i was just about to explain the theory, but DrKev got there before me...

 

[IceCreMan]

...String bending will feel exactly the same.

That's the thing, string bending doesn't feel the same. It's now easier to bend. Keep in mind I did not deck the bridge. I can still pull up a full step. I found an explanation on why it feels easier to bend when the bridge is lowered but can't remember now what it was although I do remember something about the break angle of the strings as they pass over the bridge. The sharper the break angle the easier the bend.

My best guess is that because the bridge is at less of an angle relative to the strings you're not dragging the bridge up and stretching the springs when bending. Basically I don't have to bend the string as far which means less tension to achieve the same pitch.

All I know is my strings feel slinkier and it's now easier to bend. I'm a happy camper.

Thanks for a very good explanation Dr. Kev.

 

[DrKev]

As long as you're happy, we're happy too.

 

[mark2c]

Update: I spent about an hour last night bringing the bridge down and getting things re-adjusted (saddles etc.). When I was done I still had enough float to pull up a full step and no more stiff strings. MUCH better now. Bends are no longer a problem and I don't feel like I'm going to slip off the strings. What a difference a little adjustment makes. I played for about an hour and it feels tons better, intonation is perfect and it seems to be holding tune very well after some whammy action.

It'll be getting a full workout at band practice tonight.

I set the action at 4/64" on the 12th fret per Music Man's FAQ. What height does everyone else typically set a Luke III action? Just curious.

Thanks a bunch for the help guys!

3/64 at the 12 fret bass and treble and slight relief. Also, I look for 4/64 at the 17th fret.
Floyd set flat or even with the top. LIII, same setup with a floating trem set for minor third pull up.
All strings are 3/64 at 12th fret and 4/64 at 17th fret.

When these guitars are dialed in they are the easiest guitars to play in existence. Same with the Steve Morse model. They feel like a short scale guitar.

 

[IceCreMan]

3/64 at the 12 fret bass and treble and slight relief. Also, I look for 4/64 at the 17th fret.
Floyd set flat or even with the top. LIII, same setup with a floating trem set for minor third pull up.
All strings are 3/64 at 12th fret and 4/64 at 17th fret.

When these guitars are dialed in they are the easiest guitars to play in existence. Same with the Steve Morse model. They feel like a short scale guitar.

Thanks for the info Mark. Never thought to check at the 17th fret. I did have to add a little relief due to buzzing on the lower frets.

 

[zerolight]

Somebody is mistaken. I don't see how it would make any difference. Hold on tight boys and girls, guitar physics is fun!

The strings and springs both pull on the bridge, just like a tug-of-war being played around a corner with two ropes fixed to a door (except one rope is weakly elastic guitar strings and the other is a few stiff trem springs). If the forces (i.e. tensions) from the strings and the springs are different, the bridge will move towards the bigger force (because it's pulled that way). If tensions are balanced the bridge will stay stationary. That means that for a floating bridge, as long it is free to move but stationary the trem springs are necessarily at the same tension as the strings.

With me so far? Cool.

Now let's change the claw position to change the angle of the bridge. Specifically let's imagine we tighten the claw screws. The claw moves backwards, the springs are pulled backwards with it, pulling the bridge with them. That bridge motion stretches the strings a little too. That increases the string tension (raising the pitch). That extra string tension counteracts the extra pull from the springs, perfectly maintaining the balance between spring and string tension, even though the tensions have increased. A change on one side produces a perfect change on the other side to maintain equilibrium. Nice!

But we now have to retune to the strings to maintain standard tuning (because we're no longer in tune). The strings are sharp so we have to loosen them. In doing so there is now less force on the bridge from the strings. This allows the springs to pull the bridge back even more. But the claw, i.e. one end of the springs, does not move, so spring extension now decreases. Less extension means less pull, relieving spring tension and matching the new string tension. Sweet!

We have now successfully changed the angle of the bridge, the strings are in tune so we're at the same string tension as when we started this little tug of war. That also means the same spring tension as when we started. Clearly, adjusting the spring claw to change the angle of the bridge only shifts the physical position of the bridge while the tension of strings and springs stays unchanged. String bending will feel exactly the same.

Now, once the claw is adjusted so that bridge is decked, the bridge is in contact with the guitar top. As we tighten the claw screws a little further the springs are now being stretched but the bridge can't move backwards any more. Greater spring extension = more resistance to string bending. The bridge will move less when we when bend strings and everything will feel stiffer too.

If we tighten the claw screws enough, we can add enough spring tension to completely counter the extra tension we apply when bending strings. In this case the bridge does not move at all when bending and the guitar will feel just like a hard tail. Tightening the springs even more makes no difference at all (other than potentially marking the paintwork by pulling the bridge down into the finish it's resting on, which is why I don't recommend tightening the claw any more than necessary).

I know this is a really old post but it misses some points.

1. The less the bridge moves, the less you need to bend the string to reach pitch. A decked trem for instance will feel slinkier than a floating trem because you don't need to bend the string as far to reach pitch.

2. More trem angle results in lower saddles to reach same action. Those two combined, reduce the string break angle, the result of which is more bending effort and movement to reach pitch. Flattening the trem or even tipping it back require higher saddles to reach the same action, which increased the string break angle, isolating more of the string behind the saddle, and this requiring less effort to bend the string to pitch, making it feel more slinky.

3. The higher the action, the easier it is to bend. Too low and your fingers want to roll over the strings. Too high and it is hard to fret notes, hammer on, etc. I like 1.6mm low, 1.5mm high at the 12th fret.

If you have a guitar that is stiff and increasing the action a touch doesn't help, then you can try setting the trem parallel to the body, increasing the saddles whilst still maintaining the radius of the neck at the bridge, then adjust the action back down with the posts. The lower the bridge, the higher the saddles will be, the greater the string break angle, the slinkier it will feel. Personally, I combine that with decking the bridge and tightening enough that the strings don't pull it up when I bend 3 frets. That makes it feel slinkier still, but I don't tend to use the trem.

The reason the Wolfgang in the OP was slinkier is because they have decked trems and so naturally require less bending effort than a floating trem.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

I know this is a really old post but it misses some points.

1. The less the bridge moves, the less you need to bend the string to reach pitch. A decked trem for instance will feel slinkier than a floating trem because you don't need to bend the string as far to reach pitch.

2. More trem angle results in lower saddles to reach same action. Those two combined, reduce the string break angle, the result of which is more bending effort and movement to reach pitch. Flattening the trem or even tipping it back require higher saddles to reach the same action, which increased the string break angle, isolating more of the string behind the saddle, and this requiring less effort to bend the string to pitch, making it feel more slinky.

3. The higher the action, the easier it is to bend. Too low and your fingers want to roll over the strings. Too high and it is hard to fret notes, hammer on, etc. I like 1.6mm low, 1.5mm high at the 12th fret.

If you have a guitar that is stiff and increasing the action a touch doesn't help, then you can try setting the trem parallel to the body, increasing the saddles whilst still maintaining the radius of the neck at the bridge, then adjust the action back down with the posts. The lower the bridge, the higher the saddles will be, the greater the string break angle, the slinkier it will feel. Personally, I combine that with decking the bridge and tightening enough that the strings don't pull it up when I bend 3 frets. That makes it feel slinkier still, but I don't tend to use the trem.

The reason the Wolfgang in the OP was slinkier is because they have decked trems and so naturally require less bending effort than a floating trem.

What's with all of the zombie threads lately?

Different strokes and all, but 100% disagree with this assessment. With a decked trem, you're "fighting" more spring claw tension vs. a floating trem, like is standard setup on a Luke from the factory (back of bridge tilted slightly forward).