Optimizing action/angle from 12th to 22nd fret (dealing action lowering up the fretboard)

[NickNihil]

I'm working on a 2006 AL right now and I'm having trouble setting it up to where the action stays level/raises slightly from frets 12-22.

Everything I've done:

Leveled/crowned frets, gave a slight fade away on frets 17 and up

Set relief to .010

Current action above 12th fret: just over 4/64 on high E and 5/64 on low E (with in between strings generally following a proportional gradient)

Meausured the following up against my other 2011 AL (ALHH) maybe the dreamiest playing instrument I own (which is set to the same action/relief as above):

Clearance of fretboard above the body: either the neck is slightly thinner or the pocket is carved slightly too deep as the fretboard of the 2011 sat about .5mm above the 2006 where the neck is attached to the body. The previous owner had a small shim at the BOTTOM of the neck pocket which I removed. The action was lowering up to the top of the fretboard then and and continued to lower after I removed it. SO! I reshimmed to favor the top of the neck pocket with a gradient of .5mm at the top to .2 at the bottom (for the initial clearance equalling the 2011 AL and figuring to give an angle to sink the heel slightly into body but not as severe a degree as just raising .5mm at the top which is too much), I don't have the saddle room to get the action high enough though once it gets raised you can tell the angle between 12-22 is better).

Nut slots: the slots on the 2006 were slightly higher than the 2011, so I evened those out (definitely helped a bit).

The action now stays about flat up the board, still a slight reduction, and everything sounds and plays great EXCEPT, due to the still slightly reducing action + radius the high E chokes out a little on bends above the 16th fret.

So does nut slot deepening mitigate the need for the shim, or at least an angle compensated shim? Or should I still play with raising the top OR bottom of the heel?

 

[SlappyTappy]

This is probably reductive for your question, but I've found this video very useful when diagnosing and remedying buzz -

TLDR - buzzing higher up the neck means you need a straighter neck (tighten truss rod) and to raise the bridge saddles. It's always going to be a compromise. And if the radius is rounder, generally you will experience more choking out on bends than if the radius is flatter.
A shim is not needed unless you are lost at the extreme ends of saddle adjustment, IE if your saddles are bottomed out and the action is still too high, or if your saddles are as high as they can go and action is still too low. Or, in the case of a guitar like the Axis, when your ability to adjust saddle height is very minimal due to the inherent design of the guitar.

 

[DrKev]

The guy in that video is as handsome as he is smart. Just saying.

Yeah, I will do another video about how shims actually work what they can and cannot do. I woke up at 3 o’clock in the morning having designed (in a dream) the cardboard cut-outs that I’m going to use. I kid thee not!

But, as this week I’m starting month number 18 of long Covid, my energy budget is extremely limited, so it won’t be as soon as I’d like. I’d like to get it done in the next 3 to 5 days. Ok, maybe 7. Maybe longer. We’ll see.

 

[SlappyTappy]

The guy in that video is as handsome as he is smart. Just saying.

Yeah, I will do another video about how shims actually work what they can and cannot do. I woke up at 3 o’clock in the morning having designed (in a dream) the cardboard cut-outs that I’m going to use. I kid thee not!

But, as this week I’m starting month number 18 of long Covid, my energy budget is extremely limited, so it won’t be as soon as I’d like. I’d like to get it done in the next 3 to 5 days. Ok, maybe 7. Maybe longer. We’ll see.

Lol my brain is slow at making connections, fancy seeing you here

Btw I've appreciated your instructions/suggestions on how to best apply Birchwood Casey Oil & Wax to necks, and how to maintain them. I had a habit of overdoing it based on other how-to's with multiple coats, drying, sanding smooth etc. Simpler is so much better in this case.

 

[NickNihil]

I got it really close to where I wanted-.2mm shim at the heel of the neck. Checked frets again and still had to shave down a couple. Relief still at .010, no buzzing unless you hit it hard. Action between 12 and 22 staying almost entirely flat with MAYBE a slight rise. I could ideally use the tiniest bit more of a rise but it's not lowering anymore and nothing is choking out at 4/64 on the high E (biggest problem spots, naturally, were 17-21 due to the lowering action when I received it).

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Between which frets do you measure relief? 0.010 is quite a lot. For some reason, that is the "standard recommendation" on the internet, but I've never talked to a tech or builder that would recommend anything close to that. Most would probably set it at 0.002-0.006. If you want more rise with the same action at the 12th, the geometrics sugggest less relief and higher action at the bridge.

 

[DrKev]

Between which frets do you measure relief? 0.010 is quite a lot. For some reason, that is the "standard recommendation" on the internet, but I've never talked to a tech or builder that would recommend anything close to that. Most would probably set it at 0.002-0.006. If you want more rise with the same action at the 12th, the geometrics sugggest less relief and higher action at the bridge.

I've been doing this for a long time and I respectfully don't agree. It's the standard recommendation on the internet because it's the standard recommendation. Back when I was the tech in the warehouse of the largest store in France, I kept a data sheet of the specs of the brands we stocked if they published those specs. For electric guitars the *minimum* neck relief recommended all the brands (Fender, Ibanez, Cort, Yamaha, ESP, Jackson, and Gretsch) was 0.008" / 0.2 mm and the maximum was 0.020" / 0.5 mm. Gibson and Music Man never gave specific recommendations but due to a delivery error by Gibson I had to test 250 Gibsons in the space of a single month. I measured all the best playing ones they all came out at 0.008". That's my own personal preference then and still is now, and my recommendation as *starting point* for everyone. Adjust above or below that value as you wish for your own playing comfort and preferences. There is no one size fits all, no right or wrong, only what works for you. 0.008" works beautifully for 90% of my clients right away.

True, some people like more than that, some less than that, some prefer none at all, and that's because no two people hit the strings the same way or have the same tolerance for fret buzz. What works for Petrucci, many of us mere mortals would complain that it was far too buzzy.

For measuring relief, place a capo on the first fret (i.e. directly on it) hold the string down where the neck joins the body (usually 17th) and measure half way, usually at the 7th for 8th fret. Always measure in playing position in your preferred tuning.

 

[DrKev]

Here's that handsome guy again...

 

[SlappyTappy]

I've been doing this for a long time and I respectfully don't agree. It's the standard recommendation on the internet because it's the standard recommendation. Back when I was the tech in the warehouse of the largest store in France, I kept a data sheet of the specs of the brands we stocked if they published those specs. For electric guitars the *minimum* neck relief recommended all the brands (Fender, Ibanez, Cort, Yamaha, ESP, Jackson, and Gretsch) was 0.008" / 0.2 mm and the maximum was 0.020" / 0.5 mm. Gibson and Music Man never gave specific recommendations but due to a delivery error by Gibson I had to test 250 Gibsons in the space of a single month. I measured all the best playing ones they all came out at 0.008". That's my own personal preference then and still is now, and my recommendation as *starting point* for everyone. Adjust above or below that value as you wish for your own playing comfort and preferences. There is no one size fits all, no right or wrong, only what works for you. 0.008" works beautifully for 90% of my clients right away.

True, some people like more than that, some less than that, some prefer none at all, and that's because no two people hit the strings the same way or have the same tolerance for fret buzz. What works for Petrucci, many of us mere mortals would complain that it was far too buzzy.

For measuring relief, place a capo on the first fret (i.e. directly on it) hold the string down where the neck joins the body (usually 17th) and measure half way, usually at the 7th for 8th fret. Always measure in playing position in your preferred tuning.

This makes sense to me. Speaking of Petrucci though, the Thomann video with his tech says that his ideal relief at the 12th fret is .04"/1mm which seems unusual to me since he specifically mentions Petrucci liking very low action and playing with a soft touch.

 

[dean701]

This is a great topic.
Short version: all guitars are made of wood and the wood is going to act differently on all of them.
To answer your nut slot question. The nut is out of play as soon as you fret the instrument (with the one exception that the string tension will be higher on a fretted instrument with a higher nut when fretted) This can result in less buzz due to the higher tension.

I have several guitars of the same model and in a perfect world it would be great if they were all identical but it just can't happen. Even the truss rod is going to bend one piece of wood different than another. It will bend it in a different place. Im talking in 100th's of an inch here. When it comes down to thousands of an inch every neck pocket will be different as will the necks.
I have one Axis with tremendously low action with no fret outs. It's the anomaly. It has 1/64ths action almost everywhere and the sun and stars are aligned that it doesn't fret out on bends and it doesn't even buzz. It's crazy. So easy to play. Complete shredder.
Others that I have still play fine but with heavy playing I can get the occasional buzz even with 2.5/64ths. All guitars were pleked with a straight truss rod. I have adjusted saddles, neck angle and all other parameters. They will just not play at 1/64. Which is ultimately fine.
I spent about 10 years doing tweaks so like I said I've done everything.
I have one axis that has a slight back bow in the neck where I need to use 10s to pull it straight. With 9s, it simply isn't possible and one thing I won't do is heat bend a neck. Ultimately, that wood wants to go that way.
They are just pieces of wood so it is what it is.
If your action is lower at the last fret than your 12th fret, there are 2 things you can do: a fret level fall away for the last frets, or shim the neck forward as the neck is angle too great and is causing the last fret to be lower. The one thing to keep in mind is that if the guitar has direct mounted pickups, the angle of the neck will change the string height at the pickups.

 

[DrKev]

This makes sense to me. Speaking of Petrucci though, the Thomann video with his tech says that his ideal relief at the 12th fret is .04"/1mm which seems unusual to me since he specifically mentions Petrucci liking very low action and playing with a soft touch.

No, that video is actually very confusing. Maddi is clearly referring to and measuring string action at the 12th fret *while adjusting the truss rod*. (from time 25:05 in the video) 0.050"/1.25mm on the low B string, 0.040"/1.0 mm on the other strings. Relief is not normally measured at the 12th fret, and that level of relief would be crazy huge. And he is never actually measuring the neck relief (which requires holding string down at the 1st fret and 17th or 24th fret). The only thing we actually learn in that video about neck relief is "just a little bit of space there".

So why is he adjusting the truss rod to change the action? Because once the saddle heights are set they won't change on their own accord under string tension. So any change in string action will only be due to a change in neck relief (due to changes in temperature and humidity). The appropriate way to correct that and return the string action to what was previously set is by adjusting the truss rod.

It must be said though, 1mm string action at the 12th fret is super LOW and, as Maddi said clearly, requires a very soft touch when playing or the buzz will drive you insane. But that's JP's compromise - some buzz in exchange for playability. Compromise is the essential element of the "perfect" guitar setup, i.e. there is no perfect, only an ideal set of compromises we (individually) are willing to live with.

 

[NickNihil]

This is a great topic.
Short version: all guitars are made of wood and the wood is going to act differently on all of them.
To answer your nut slot question. The nut is out of play as soon as you fret the instrument (with the one exception that the string tension will be higher on a fretted instrument with a higher nut when fretted) This can result in less buzz due to the higher tension.

I have several guitars of the same model and in a perfect world it would be great if they were all identical but it just can't happen. Even the truss rod is going to bend one piece of wood different than another. It will bend it in a different place. I talking in 100's of an inch here. When it comes down to thousands of an inch every neck pocket will be different as will the necks.
I have one Axis with tremendously low action with no fret outs. It's the anomaly. It has 1/64ths action almost everywhere and the sun and stars are aligned that it doesn't fret out on bends and it doesn't even buzz. It's crazy. So easy to play. Complete shredder.
Others that I have still play fine but with heavy playing I can get the occasional buzz even with 2.5/64ths. All guitars were pleked with a straight truss rod. I have adjusted saddles, neck angle and all other parameters. They will just not play at 1/64. Which is ultimately fine.
I spent about 10 years doing tweaks so like I said I've done everything.
I have one axis that has a slight back bow in the neck where I need to use 10s to pull it straight. With 9s, it simply isn't possible and one thing I won't do is heat bend a neck. Ultimately, that wood wants to go that way.
They are just pieces of wood so it is what it is.
If you're action is lower at the last fret than your 12th fret, there are 2 things you can do: a fret level fall away for the last frets, or shim the neck back. The one thing to keep in mind is that if the guitar has direct mounted pickups, the angle of the neck will change the string height at the pickups.

Wound up shimming under the heel with a .2mm raise and continued to find/knock down some high frets. I now have it where I like it. Many thanks for the insight!

 

[dean701]

I wouldn't consider 1mm super low but that's how I roll. lol. I tend to agree with this chart but I strive to get lower than they list as 'low' (first chart is metric - 2nd imperial)

 

[Sleeping At Sea]

I use that tool when measuring my setups. This is more so I know where I like it and can refer back to those measurements. I always thought these seemed quite low though. Most of my guitars have Low E at 1.75-2.0 and I wouldn't have thought that was that high. Anything 1.50mm or under seems crazy low!

@dean701 nailed what I've been finding since getting into setups the last few years. Trying to get similar results over different guitars is a fools errand! I've now learnt that each guitar will be it's own thing and to find what works best for it.

 

[Vito Porkleone]

On neck relief, I've always done the first/last fret, measure relief at the 7th with .008 - .010 as the goal. For the last couple years, I've measured action at the 17th (no capo) and set to 1/16". Very comfy but not super low either.

I've had my StingRay for 2.5 years. A couple days after I got it, I raised one string a 64th, and have only had to adjust the truss rod maybe 2 or 3 times, and never more than an 1/8th of a turn. That roasted maple is pretty freaking stable.

 

[Mace13]

I too have learned that some guitars can’t get to low string action like others. My lowest action guitar (no buzz) is a cheapo Epiphone SG I got at a second hand store.. go figure!

 

[DrKev]

I wouldn't consider 1mm super low but that's how I roll. lol. I tend to agree with this chart but I strive to get lower than they list as 'low' (first chart is metric - 2nd imperial)

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I have never, and will never, agree with that chart. At least not for electric. What they call “low” is “crazy low”, what they call “medium” is “low”, and what they call high is “medium”.

Think of it this way: recommended factory specifications for most manufacturers, the mythical factory set up, is 4/64” high E and 5/64” low E string. (0.060” and 0.080”, 1.6 mm and 2.0 mm) for electric guitars. That’s medium right there.

Oddly, I think they erred in the other direction for bass. I do totally agree with the acoustic guitar chart though. I am betting somebody who only plays acoustic guitar came up with that chart!

 

[dean701]

I have never, and will never, agree with that chart. At least not for electric. What they call “low” is “crazy low”, what they call “medium” is “low”, and what they call high is “medium”.

Think of it this way: recommended factory specifications for most manufacturers, the mythical factory set up, is 4/64” high E and 5/64” low E string. (0.060” and 0.080”, 1.6 mm and 2.0 mm) for electric guitars. That’s medium right there.

Oddly, I think they erred in the other direction for bass. I do totally agree with the acoustic guitar chart though. I am betting somebody who only plays acoustic guitar came up with that chart!

lol. i do a lot of setups for shredder players. my clients are pretty much all sub 1mm. .8mm is usually the ask. everything is low. super low to me is .5mm

 

[Rbg]

I think we are having different definition of buzz free here. If your action is 0.8-0.5 everywhere as you mention the string will hit the frets upon normal picking no matter what. One can make a slow motion video of a string vibrating after a pick attack and see. If buzz free is not annoyingly coming from an amp with a distortion on, sure. Also it all depends on what you are playing. Nowadays when you have all those interviews with techs and player you can see that most of 80s guitar legends (don't know about modern guys as not following) have their action pretty normal and close to factory specs coz they play bends and all sorts of riffs and power chords where low relief and action may actually make things not optimal.

BTW, I have L2 and L3 with one 1.5-1.3 action and other is factory specs 4/64 (1.7 ish) all strings and I can feel the difference and discomfort when switching (both way actually) but only for like 10-15 mins and then it is totally comfortable. I am not a shredder though

 

[NickNihil]

Yeah it’s funny I find ‘factory spec’ to be my favorite though I might be a stylistic outlier on this forum (experimental/ambient/alt-jazz, favorite players are Nels Cline, Marc Ribot, Bill Frisell, and, yes, Annie Clark). There’s a nice bouncy resistance to the strings at that height without feeling like tightropes over a canyon. I do a lot of clean playing, and rhythm playing, with extreme dynamics so I like to keep things mostly buzz free. BUT I was a shredder/wannabe shredder in a previous life so some low action weedling can be fun from time to time.