Ot: Do Warmed Up Electronics Sound Better?

[tadawson]

Christ, look at the big brain on Tim!

I grew up working on tubes and high voltage stuff, and was one of the few that didn't succumb to the mass stupidity of getting rid of all my tube stuff the day the transistor appeared . . . . still got the tester, manuals, and about 100 NOS tubes on hand . . . and NO, folks, I WON'T sell 'em . . . .

- Tim

 

[Mobay45]

I grew up working on tubes and high voltage stuff, and was one of the few that didn't succumb to the mass stupidity of getting rid of all my tube stuff the day the transistor appeared . . . . still got the tester, manuals, and about 100 NOS tubes on hand . . . and NO, folks, I WON'T sell 'em . . . .

- Tim

But would you give me a couple?

 

[tadawson]

Reminds me of my Aragon stereo amp at home. There's a green light in the front that stays lit as long as there is power left in the transformer and capacitors. If you turn the amp on and then back off, the light goes out immediately. But if the amp has been on for a while and then turned off, the light stays on for several minutes. This leads me to believe that only after this amp is fully warmed up does it perform up to its capabilities.

That power light is hooked up to the big mains caps.....it is such a small load, (led in most cases) that it takes a bit to discharge the few volts it draws....those big caps can hold hundreds of "reserve power" volts.

Well, transformers don't hold power - period. The residual charge here is purely in the caps, which are isolated from the transformer by the rectifier diodes (or tubes). Caps don't hold different amounts of charge based on temp. Electrolytics have a phenomenon commonly called "forming" in that they won't be at rated capacity if they are not used for a period of time (typically months) and may have very high leakage until they have run for a while. If this was happening in a day or so, that high leakage means nothing more than the power supply filter caps are failing . . . .

- Tim

 

[maddog]

If you ever turned on a tube stereo or TV, the time it takes for the sound/picture to come on and stabilize is pretty much the warm up time

I think that this is what is sought after. From a listening perspective, when has the amp come into stability? From first hand experience, I've noticed some tube designs take several minutes (say 5-10) to settle in.

Short of getting to plasma type temps (the sun, for instance) magnetic fields are pretty much unaffected by temps, as would be the case with a transformer. Guys, a transformer is a PASSIVE device - about as sophisticated as a ROCK! Nothing more than wire wound around iron

This is not what I was really getting at. If I got a big ol' chunk of iron attached to my chassis, it is going to change the thermal constant. So the chassis takes longer to warm up to a stable operating temperature which means all the other components take longer.

I grew up working on tubes and high voltage stuff, and was one of the few that didn't succumb to the mass stupidity of getting rid of all my tube stuff the day the transistor appeared

According to every ee I've talked to, ss is way better than vs and they think I'm nuts to be using antiquated forms of amplification. I would like to hear why you feel tubes are worth keeping.

Well, transformers don't hold power - period. The residual charge here is purely in the caps, which are isolated from the transformer by the rectifier diodes (or tubes). Caps don't hold different amounts of charge based on temp.

Transformers do store energy in the form of a magnetic field. (tho' 'tis smaller than a fieldmouse).

And I don't think that Freddy-G is stating that the amp has to warm up from a temp standpoint for the caps to charge. I think he is stating that it takes time for the caps to charge and until they are fully charged the amp isn't warmed-up (stable). But that is just my interpretation.


Bigballz is correct. This debate has been raging for years. While I don't think the engineering is incorrect, I just think it is incomplete. Engineering is all about close enough to work reliably and repeatedly. Which reminds me of the joke:

A mathematician and an engineer are presented with a beautiful person. They are both told that which ever one gets to this beautiful person first, gets to join the beautiful person in a lasting and fulfilling relationship. However (there is always a stipulation), both the mathematician and the engineer are constrained to only make up half the distance between them and the beautiful person on each turn. Immedialely the mathematician throws up his hands and yells out in exasperation,"With that rule, I'll never even touch the beautiful person". Meanwhile the engineer smiles broadly and states," But I'll get close enough."

So I hope at this point I've completely lost my point and now hopefully everyone is ready to get back to some meaningful conversation.

 

[BigBallz]

Electronics are like women, they're just different once warmed up.

 

[Golem]

I have a trashy 30W Vox bass combo and it farts better once you get the voice coil really hot.

 

[BigBallz]

I have a trashy 30W Vox bass combo and it farts better once you get the voice colil really hot.

SEE!! Gloem aggrees!!! Whoops...Golem....hee hee....sorry...

 

[Golem]

........So I hope at this point I've completely lost my point and now hopefully everyone is ready to get back to some meaningful conversation.

Uhhmmnnn... are we keeping you up ???

 

[maddog]

Uhhmmnnn... are we keeping you up ???

No!

er, Yes!

um, Maybe?...

 

[tadawson]

I think that this is what is sought after. From a listening perspective, when has the amp come into stability? From first hand experience, I've noticed some tube designs take several minutes (say 5-10) to settle in.

I can buy that. All the elements in some of the tubes may take a few minutes to get totally up to temp. What I take exception to is the folks that say "My amp came in from the cold, and I played the snot out of it, and it didn't sound right for hours". That, methinks, is caca . . . . considering a tube in a 70 degree room gets to a couple hundred internally when running, coming up from, say 30 degrees instead is a miniscule difference in the big picture.

This is not what I was really getting at. If I got a big ol' chunk of iron attached to my chassis, it is going to change the thermal constant. So the chassis takes longer to warm up to a stable operating temperature which means all the other components take longer.

Yes, but ever notice that most all transformers have thier mass on the TOP of the chassis, and all the components are on the bottom? And that tube amps are typically open to the air on top? I really don't think the transformer would make that much difference in the overall thermal condition of the amp. The self-heating from resistors and such is much more of a determining factor of temp than radiated heat. Same for tubes - they dump pretty much all thier heat above the chassis as well . . . .

According to every ee I've talked to, ss is way better than vs and they think I'm nuts to be using antiquated forms of amplification. I would like to hear why you feel tubes are worth keeping.

Well, a lot of the younger EEs have never touched tubes, and couldn't make much of an informed comparison. I don't necessarily advocate that tubes are better, but rather an alternative. Also, ever look at high power radio transmitters? Still pretty much a tube world, so if anyone claims tubes are dead technology, they are dead wrong. They have just receded to where they work best - RF and specialty type of stuff. RF because as transistors get bigger, the internal capacitances make they really inefficient and low gain for RF use - not so the tube. Granted, LCD and plasma TV is really coming on strong, but how many folks can say they don't have a CRT TV? Once again, a tube . . . . . And instrument amps, for the distinctive sound characteristics.

I think a lot of folks are like lemmings - immediately charging to the next "gee whiz" product introduction, whether it is actually better or not. Take MP3 players, for instance. The sound is inarguably WORSE than that of a CD - the lossy MP3 encoding ensures that, but folks still stampede in that direction. I can understand the convienience thing, but what happened to the quest for quality sound that was all the rage in the 80s? Now, it seems like nobody cares, and mediocrity has become the norm.

Also, take serviceability. Tube stuff is simple like a rock is simple. If you can manage to figure out how not to electrocute yourself, it is really easy to work on, even with no schematic. Try that with some newer SS stuff - all surface mount, no docs, and a snowballs chance in hell of figuring out the circuit. They have pretty much made a deliberate effort to make the product unserviceable . . . .

Transformers do store energy in the form of a magnetic field. (tho' 'tis smaller than a fieldmouse).

Pretty much only while running - the field collapses in microseconds when power is removed. This guy was talking about the pilot light staying on due to stored charge, and my point here was that the transformier will dump faster than the pilot light can dim. Hence, what he is seeing is clearly NOT due to the transformer.

And I don't think that Freddy-G is stating that the amp has to warm up from a temp standpoint for the caps to charge. I think he is stating that it takes time for the caps to charge and until they are fully charged the amp isn't warmed-up (stable). But that is just my interpretation.

It sounded to me like old electrolytics that have become leaky and need to reform. Once again, like the transformer case, when powered on with no output, the caps should be at full charge in milliseconds . . . . unless there is a tube rectifier, and we need to wait for it to warm up.

Bigballz is correct. This debate has been raging for years. While I don't think the engineering is incorrect, I just think it is incomplete. Engineering is all about close enough to work reliably and repeatedly.

I guess I look at this in the same vein as the "great cable debate", "tube vs. ss debate" and all the other philosophical debates that rage on tirelessly. If the technology and engineering don't support the claim, and I can be unquestionably shown the claim (blind test kinda thing) then I vote bulls**t. As non-blind tests have shown time after time - if you WANT to hear something you WILL. It does not mean that it is really there . . . .

And not to chuck a rock in your direction, but most of the folks that seem to say things like "the engineering is incomplete" are the ones who refuse to accept what is known fact, and the laws of physics to justify a totally objective perception . . . . yeah, maybe this happens on occasion, but mostly I hear this when someone has just totally lost an argument, and just plain does not want to concede that they are just wrong . . . .

- Tim