OT: How Many Different DT Songs Are Rolled into Shattered Fortress?

[Josh O]

Yes I realize I'm quite late to the party, finally getting Black Clouds and Silver Linings. How many past DT songs did they combine into Shattered Fortess? I'm hearing at least three but can't put my finger on them all at the moment.

 

[leftyguitarblue]

it's the fifth and final song of the twelve step suite;

Glass Prison - six degrees
This Dying Soul - Train of thought
Root of All Evil - Octavarium
Repentance - Systematic chaos
Shattered Fortress - Black Clouds...

Twelve-step Suite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Josh O]

Sweet thanks!!!

 

[kdj771]

o yay a chance for me to spew my DT knowledge!!!

the first riff is original to Shattered Fortress (SF), the solo that comes off of this riff is based the harmony from This Dying Soul played at a faster tempo and in a higher key.

the riff following this is from about 2/3rds through Glass Prison, and the riff after is also from the Glass Prison. the chorus riff is original to SF.

after the chorus the riff played is from the intro of This Dying Soul,

after the next chorus the piece is very similar to Repentance except for changed lyrics. This leads into the half time riff that is inspired by breakdown in Glass Prison, which is played in varying time signatures, this riff also makes an appearance in This Dying Soul.

the clean part that comes after the solo played over the previously mentioned riff is original to SF. The vocals over this clean part are from This Dying Soul but sung differently

The part played after the clean part with spoken word is from Root of All Evil, and the remainder of the song is taken from Root of All Evil as well, with it ending in the intro riff to Glass Prison, given it a sense of coming full circle.

the day they play this in its entirety live will be the day the heavens crash upon the earth, this will be be the second best piece they could play live, only behind Scenes From A Memory in full, which already has been done.

 

[Brand X]

Just my opinion and I'll probably get shot for it....but to me Shattered Fortress and Best of Times are both pretty lame tunes. The lyrics are really poor and I appreciate they are from a very sentimental place for MP - but I just can't get past the poor lyrics and dodgy melodies. As it's so personal to Mike I appreciate that it would have been very difficult to say 'Mike - You can do better here mate''......but even so.............

Wish they'd give James a bit more leverage to do his own thing sometimes.

Maybe Shattered Fortress would have been better if MP had said to the band that the final song is about the impact his addiction had on the band and his friends from their perspective, then leave the lyrics and melodies to them?

Just my 2p.

 

[Hendog]

Just my opinion and I'll probably get shot for it....but to me Shattered Fortress and Best of Times are both pretty lame tunes. The lyrics are really poor and I appreciate they are from a very sentimental place for MP - but I just can't get past the poor lyrics and dodgy melodies. As it's so personal to Mike I appreciate that it would have been very difficult to say 'Mike - You can do better here mate''......but even so.............

Wish they'd give James a bit more leverage to do his own thing sometimes.

Maybe Shattered Fortress would have been better if MP had said to the band that the final song is about the impact his addiction had on the band and his friends from their perspective, then leave the lyrics and melodies to them?

Just my 2p.

I could not disagree any more. And calling them "lame" is downright offensive. Is Mike not alowed to write a song about an important part of his life unless he runs the lyrics by someone first? As far as the melodies being "dodgy", well I dont even know what that means.

We all have songs that we favor and songs that we dont but to call those two masterpieces "lame" because you dont appreciate the content is aggressively opinionated and unnecessary.

 

[Cameron Himself]

I think the bottom line is Dream Theater, like MOST bands, could very much benefit from a producer. I am a huge fan from back in the day, but I think they have strayed a bit from their roots on the past few albums. They just need someone to pull in the reigns a bit. And ol' Portnoy should hold off on some of those background vocals in the future.

 

[Hendog]

I think the bottom line is Dream Theater, like MOST bands, could very much benefit from a producer. I am a huge fan from back in the day, but I think they have strayed a bit from their roots on the past few albums. They just need someone to pull in the reigns a bit. And ol' Portnoy should hold off on some of those background vocals in the future.

This is a reasonable opinion.

I personally like the fact that they dont have a producer and they let their creativity flow but I respect this opinion.

 

[kdj771]

dream theater has always written new music as a need to evolve, they've done the more prog rock stuff, hell its incorporated everywhere even on the new stuff. people who say they need to go back to the old days dont realize that what keeps them going is exploring new avenues. they never really have had any "roots" per se, they've always been a culmination of so many aspects that its to hard to give them a firm sound as their roots.

as for the producer thing, that would be disastrous, look at what it did to Falling into Infinity. Ruined the album, desmond child, what a pathetic person to bring in for a band like DT, that's the labels fault. If they had external producers up until now, and im not saying all producers are bad, they wouldnt have done SFAM and Six Degrees would never have been a double album.

as for the comment about Best of Times, that disgusts me, when people say they've become to "metal" and to different from their earlier work, they only need to look at this song, very rush-esque, coincidentally, like their early stuff. And calling out the melody on Best of Times, well ill just say its one of the best solos JP has ever done, using every technique you can think.

The thing with the Shattered Fortress that people dont get is that its meant to be a mash up of previous songs. People try to make the excuse that their being lazy and not making it all original. If they were lazy we would'nt have 15+ min songs like nightmare. The song is meant to tie all the pieces of the suite together and make it cohesive.

Its like writing a summary after reading a book or watching a movie, your gonna talk about stuff thats already happened.

 

[walleye]

these are some really great songs. id recommend everyone to listen to them even if you dont like metal, prog or dream theater. once you have the prior knowledge that its about alocoholism the lyrics are really deep - maybe you can pick up on that without the prior knowledge but i didnt

 

[Brand X]

I could not disagree any more. And calling them "lame" is downright offensive. Is Mike not alowed to write a song about an important part of his life unless he runs the lyrics by someone first? As far as the melodies being "dodgy", well I dont even know what that means.

We all have songs that we favor and songs that we dont but to call those two masterpieces "lame" because you dont appreciate the content is aggressively opinionated and unnecessary.

Mate - you're taking me far too seriously. Obviously the subject matter isn't lame.....but the lyrics / melodies that Mike uses to convey the song don't do the obviously highly emotional content the justice they rightly deserve in my opinion. The melodies (to me) sound forced on those two songs, and the lyrics (again to me) are just poor (lazy??) - how low is James mixed on TBOT? I'm not arguing with you, it's just my opinion........which as a massive DT fan is OK to have. Personally I wouldn't call them masterpieces (although maybe be I would from an instrumental perspective), especially when NTR and TCOT are on the same CD, you obviously feel different.....it's all good. I certainly didn't mean to 'cause you any offense.

 

[musicmanguitar]

So this has turned into a bash DT music thread? I have been a fan of dream theater (majesty) since 1986 .. im from new york and grew up watching these guys grow into amazing musicians .... So come on. How can u say that these songs are lame. Maybe it's your lack of knowledge, or unopeness to appreciate things about music , that makes you say these things ... What if you became famous for YOUR music and someone bashed you saying your **** sucks !! what a sucky guitar player? and you know you busted your ass to achieve what you wanted. All im trying to say is music is music. If you do not like it. Don't listen to it. Thats why they made the skip button fast forward features .. preferably i like the rewind button cause no matter what DT comes out with, there music rocks and i like to learn there stuff, IMO
There is no bad music, there are no bad musicians, but if i don't care for it i chose not to listen to it.

 

[Hendog]

Mate - you're taking me far too seriously. Obviously the subject matter isn't lame.....but the lyrics / melodies that Mike uses to convey the song don't do the obviously highly emotional content the justice they rightly deserve in my opinion. The melodies (to me) sound forced on those two songs, and the lyrics (again to me) are just poor (lazy??) - how low is James mixed on TBOT? I'm not arguing with you, it's just my opinion........which as a massive DT fan is OK to have. Personally I wouldn't call them masterpieces (although maybe be I would from an instrumental perspective), especially when NTR and TCOT are on the same CD, you obviously feel different.....it's all good. I certainly didn't mean to 'cause you any offense.

Dude,

I'm only taking offense to what you said because you said they were "lame". If you said "I dont like those songs", I would not have said a word.

To be honest, I probably wouldn't have commented until I read "dodgy melodies". That just flat out makes no sence to me.

 

[musicmanguitar]

I must agree with Hendog .. im with you brother

 

[Brand X]

LoL - Guys, chill! ;o)

I said I didn't like the melodies / lyrics in two songs and thought they could have been better. Is that a DT bash? Do you honestly love every DT song to the point where no-one else can have an opinion?

Jeez -Don't let this place get like the VH forums where everything is jumped on and psycho-analysed! )

I apologise if my initial wording caused offence - I did not expect to be taken to task.......but the lyrics are still poor! ;o)

 

[roburado]

Personally, still love DT, but man, sometimes the lyrics really could use some work.

 

[GoKart_MoZart]

it's the fifth and final song of the twelve step suite...[/url]

I always thought of The Mirror as part of that cycle. Especially since the image (and word!) of a mirror appears in the other songs. And the overarching theme is one of personal reflection.

(My high school english teacher would have loved that last sentence!)

Maybe it's the prologue?

 

[knguro]

I always thought of The Mirror as part of that cycle. Especially since the image (and word!) of a mirror appears in the other songs. And the overarching theme is one of personal reflection.

(My high school english teacher would have loved that last sentence!)

Maybe it's the prologue?

Yeah that's what I've heard about The Mirror, that it could be called the prologue, however this has never been confirmed by Mike Portnoy/