OT: Theory...Modes epiphany?

[adouglas]

This is way OT, but I'm more comfortable asking music questions to those I "know."

If this is too far OT for the forum, please feel free to slap me down or reply via PM.

I've been playing a long time*, but I've never had any training at all...it's always been by ear. Naturally, after this long I've been yearning to learn more about theory, because I'm convinced it can help me take things to the next level.

But modes have been confusing the hell out of me. I understand the definition...the various modes of a key are just the same scale as the "home" scale (e.g. A major) only starting on a different note...but that means nothing to me without knowing how it applies in a practical sense. I haven't tried memorizing all the names (locrian, phrygian, etc.) because I really need to understand the mechanics before any of that is worthwhile.

I think I just sussed it, but I need someone who knows what they're talking about to tell me if I'm nuts or have gotten it right.

Let's say you've got a standard blues-rock progression... I-IV-V. Say you're playing in A major. So the three roots are A, D and E (all of which exist in the A major scale).

Now, knowing nothing but a major scale, the normal thing for a typical wanker like me is to play notes out of the A major scale over the A chord, notes out of the D major scale over the D chord, and notes from the E major scale over the E chord. Simple...same pattern, just moved over and up the neck. This works pretty well, of course, but it's dull. I sense that there is more to be done, but I don't know how to do it.

BUT...what if...I played the key-of-A-major MODE that starts on the D over the D chord, and the same with the E chord (i.e. mode of A major that starts on E)? All I'm doing is playing three different modes of A major. The three scale patterns are all different, but I'm still in the same key.

I've just been screwing around with this idea, and it seems to work. It can't be that simple. Can it?

Is it really that simple? Am I missing something here, or have I been trying to overcomplicate things?

I have followup questions if the basic premise is correct.

*I first picked up a bass in 1979. I'm now old enough to understand that the single most important, and most honest, statement you can make when you're trying to learn something is "I don't know."

 

[phatduckk]

im in the same boat ...

id love to hear what someone w/ theory skills has to say

 

[phatduckk]

the single most important, and most honest, statement you can make when you're trying to learn something is "I don't know."

very true ... a few years ago i realized that being able to say "i dont know" is a very ballsy thing

 

[adouglas]

Superman wears Jack Bauer pajamas.

Jack Bauer spends his entire day being REALLY STRESSED OUT and having INTENSE CELL PHONE CONVERSATIONS that never get dropped.



How come the guy never fumbles with charger cords like the rest of us?

 

[Randracula]

Now, knowing nothing but a major scale, the normal thing for a typical wanker like me is to play notes out of the A major scale over the A chord, notes out of the D major scale over the D chord, and notes from the E major scale over the E chord. Simple...same pattern, just moved over and up the neck. This works pretty well, of course, but it's dull. I sense that there is more to be done, but I don't know how to do it.

BUT...what if...I played the key-of-A-major MODE that starts on the D over the D chord, and the same with the E chord (i.e. mode of A major that starts on E)? All I'm doing is playing three different modes of A major. The three scale patterns are all different, but I'm still in the same key.

I'm no theory wiz either but I think you pretty much have the idea right there. Instead of approaching each chord like they are completely separate from each other you can use the modes to connect them more smoothly.....

 

[Wasabi]

Well, you ARE right, because the chord progression is actually just a function of the A major scale. You're playing the I chord, the IV chord and the V chord. If you play an A major scale over the A chord, D chord, and E7 chord, you're outlining the notes in all those chords.

For simplicity's sake, playing the modes just gives you an easy way to move around the neck in a specific key. Where it starts sounding super cool is when you do chordal improvisation...playing the arpeggio of each mode over a certain key. For example, in the key of A, you can play the B minor 7, C# minor 7, etc. Playing the arpeggios actually implies altered harmony, and it sounds very cool and jazzy.

 

[Wasabi]

PS I'd be happy to try to answer any questions more clearly if you ask specific ones

 

[syciprider]

I come from the Geezer Butler School of pentatonic wanking.

 

[GassieBall]

In other words, he is playing a D Lydian and an E Miyxolydian in the key of A. Is that right Wasabi?

 

[adouglas]

PS I'd be happy to try to answer any questions more clearly if you ask specific ones

Okay, here's a really basic terminology question:

Remember that I don't know the names of the modes vs. the tone of the scale on which they start, so to avoid terminology-based confusion let's define and use alternate names:

Let's say that RED is the mode starting on the root.
GREEN is the mode starting on the IV tone.
BLUE is the mode starting on the V tone.

So is our hypothetical I-IV-V progression of modes:

A major RED
A major GREEN
A major BLUE

or is it

A major RED
D major GREEN
E major BLUE

?

(i.e., is F major phrygian the sequence of notes based on the F major scale only starting on whatever tone the phrygian mode starts on

OR

is it the major-scale phrygian sequence that starts on F? See the distinction?)

 

[adouglas]

Where it starts sounding super cool is when you do chordal improvisation...playing the arpeggio of each mode over a certain key. For example, in the key of A, you can play the B minor 7, C# minor 7, etc. Playing the arpeggios actually implies altered harmony, and it sounds very cool and jazzy.

So...so....um....

The example you cite uses only chords that have notes which are in the A major scale, right?

If so, then if I figure out what notes are shared by the chords in whatever song I'm playing and the scale of the key, I can improvise forever and never go wrong, yes?

How the HELL do you do that on the fly?

 

[Wasabi]

In other words, he is playing a D Lydian and an E Miyxolydian in the key of A. Is that right Wasabi?

Yes, but...he can play any of the modes anywhere in the tune. He doesn't have to switch to each mode for each chord change. Don't worry about following the changes unless you are stressing particular chord tones. There are some great exercises you can do to familiarize yourself with the modes, as well as exercises to learn arpeggios within each modal shape.

 

[adouglas]

Yes, but...he can play any of the modes anywhere in the tune.

Wait a minute...does that mean that I can just play A major scale tones anywhere in a song that's in A major? That seems odd.

I mean, if the song goes from A to D and I play a C# at that moment, it's not going to work, is it?

 

[dougmoser]

I think modes are more for instruments that can play chords.

 

[Wasabi]

Okay, here's a really basic terminology question:

Remember that I don't know the names of the modes vs. the tone of the scale on which they start, so to avoid terminology-based confusion let's define and use alternate names:

Let's say that RED is the mode starting on the root.
GREEN is the mode starting on the IV tone.
BLUE is the mode starting on the V tone.

So is our hypothetical I-IV-V progression of modes:

A major RED
A major GREEN
A major BLUE

or is it

A major RED
D major GREEN
E major BLUE

?

(i.e., is F major phrygian the sequence of notes based on the F major scale only starting on whatever tone the phrygian mode starts on

OR

is it the major-scale phrygian sequence that starts on F? See the distinction?)

Wow...I now have a headache. The Phrygian is the third mode of the major scale for the key you're in. The parent key contains a corresponding major scale. If you're in the key of D, the parent scale is D major (D E F# G A B C#).

The Ionian mode starts on D and is the major scale.
Dorian starts on the second note of the parent scale (E) and is E F# G A B C# D.
Phrygian starts on the third note of the parent scale (F#) and is F# G A B C# D E.
etc.

Now, further...take the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th note of each mode, and this gives you a chord DIATONIC to the key.

Now let's work out the chords based on the major scale...

The chord based on the Ionian mode is a major 7th (D, F#, A, C#)
Dorian=minor 7th (E G B D)
Phrygian=minor 7th (you guys figure out the notes from here)
Lydian=major 7th
Mixolydian=7th (major 3rd, but flat 7th)
Aeolian=minor 7th
Locrian=minor 7b5

So this is why certain chords work as a progression and others don't.

Anyway, you can use these arpeggios or scales or not depending on what you want to do. If you want to outline certain chordal phrases, play those arpeggios. They create some interesting tensions (but still in the key) when you play the ones that don't "match" the chords.

This is just basic, though. Later, you can get "out there" by doing some substitutions, which I can go over at some other time.

 

[Wasabi]

I think modes are more for instruments that can play chords.

Not at all. Modes are just horizontal versions of chords. See my previous post.

 

[Wasabi]

Wait a minute...does that mean that I can just play A major scale tones anywhere in a song that's in A major? That seems odd.

I mean, if the song goes from A to D and I play a C# at that moment, it's not going to work, is it?

A C# will work, but it's a half step from the tonic (D), so it will provide tension. So you can't just hang on it...unless you want that tension. There are certain notes you can't hang on. It's all in the phrasing, but all your note choices "work." If you always play a scale that matches a chord, it honestly gets boring, and you still run into "wrong" notes...things that are technically in the key but providing tension in weird places.

 

[Wasabi]

So...so....um....

The example you cite uses only chords that have notes which are in the A major scale, right?

If so, then if I figure out what notes are shared by the chords in whatever song I'm playing and the scale of the key, I can improvise forever and never go wrong, yes?

How the HELL do you do that on the fly?

Well, it's easier than that. Most rock and pop songs, it's easy to figure out the key, because you have fewer key changes, and the chords point to the key. For example,

G Bm C D is in the key of G. Why? Because G is major, and C and D are major. The only major chords are the I the IV and the V. G is the I, C is the IV, and D is the V. Bm is the iii, which is normally a minor.

Make sense?

 

[adouglas]

Now let's work out the chords based on the major scale...

The chord based on the Ionian mode is a major 7th (D, F#, A, C#)
Dorian=minor 7th (E G B D)
Phrygian=minor 7th (you guys figure out the notes from here)
Lydian=major 7th..... etc.

Okay, so back to the original simple terminology question....

Is the Ionian above D Ionian?
Is the Dorian above D Dorian or E Dorian?
Is the Phrygian above....etc. etc.?

 

[Wasabi]

Okay, so back to the original simple terminology question....

Is the Ionian above D Ionian?
Is the Dorian above D Dorian or E Dorian?
Is the Phrygian above....etc. etc.?

You'd call it D Ionian, E Dorian, and F# Phrygian...