Off Topic Pitching to club owners...how do you answer the "following" question?

[adouglas]

Last night the drummer and I were hitting the bricks, visiting clubs and handing out press kits. It's a discouraging process.

A question we routinely get is some variation of "What's your following? How many people can you bring in the door? How many people are on your email list?" ... etc.

There are two problems with this question.

First, it's not as if we can control who comes to see us. (Face it...you impose upon all your friends, family and coworkers to come see and support your band ONCE, then you're just annoying.)

Second, it's a Catch 22. You can't build a following without getting gigs, and you can't get gigs without a following.

Aside from that, for popular places it's ridiculous. They're packed on a Saturday night anyway, no matter who's playing.

So how do you deal with that question when it gets asked?

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

My band is having the same difficulties. You can always state that you intend to provide entertainment for their existing clientele.

The real gem is when they tell you that your band can play at their venue but there is no pay. And of course, you have to do all the promotion and bring ALL the equipment (no PA).

 

[koogie2k]

Well...those are questions we have to deal with all the time.

Bringing people in. The bar obviously is there to make $$$ and want their place filled to capacity. We all understand that. My answer to that question is "We will have the place filled." Once that is said, I pound the pavement and advertise and promote. Keep in mind, this is only for shows we headline. If we are just one of the opening bands...not my problem for the club. However, I do promote the show to bring in as many people as I can.

Our e-mail list is in the thousands. We have people who support our band world wide. That is the beauty of this little thing called Internet.

It is tough for us as musicians to get gigs now a days. We, being strictly original music, have it even harder in this area where I live. It is a terrible scene here...but...we find our shows and we are looking at out of town/state shows as well.

But...to simply answer the question. "You will pack the place" is the best answer.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

But...to simply answer the question. "You will pack the place" is the best answer.

That can work too. However, if you don't actually do it, it makes it difficult to get repeat gigs.

I'm with adouglas on this one: it is a catch 22. You cannot bring your friends and family to every show if you're a regularly gigging band and you cannot develop a following without getting the chance to play. Unless you are willing to play for nothing (or close to it - and many bands do), it's difficult. They are often only interested if there is no risk involved for them.

Bars hire waitresses, bar tenders, bus boys, door men, etc... When they get the job, are they expected to bring in a crowd every night? And if they don't, do they not get paid?

We are trying to find a few venues that have bands as part of their weekly entertainment (and pay) and get a rotation in those a few times a year. That's what it seems like a lot of the successful bands in my area do.

 

[TheAntMan]

I'm with Koogs on this one. A lot of people will not give you a fair shot so you have to take like action.

"Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell 'em, 'Certainly I can!' Then get busy and find out how to do it."
Theodore Roosevelt
26th president of US (1858 - 1919)

-- Ant

 

[DTG]

it would seem its a world wide problem,but i am with koogs on this.tell them what they want to hear and then play your ass off.so even if its not a packed house you can say you played your best.

BTW the standard line here is that if the bar is paying you for a gig they need to make 4 times that on bar sales.so if your on 500 quid he needs to take in 2000 just to cover his cost.i dont know if its true or where they get it from but its all i ever here these days.

 

[Grand Wazoo]

Well in my case it was just a matter of hanging in there with persistance, you have to play in your local club at no profit for many many nights until the revellers start to get to know you and your band becomes more popular, you get sick of playin covers day in day out but sadly that is what will work for you. Forget about playing your own material no matter how good it is no one wants to hear your stuff in a drinking bar, then you go away and look for another club bar or whatever and once you return the club owner knows you are popular and will re-book you, then you can start to demad payment and take it from there but I have always assumed that gigging in clubs it's just for fun and to get out there and do it, not for making a living out of it. Unless you really are hot stuff.

 

[adouglas]

BTW the standard line here is that if the bar is paying you for a gig they need to make 4 times that on bar sales.so if your on 500 quid he needs to take in 2000 just to cover his cost.i dont know if its true or where they get it from but its all i ever here these days.

That is fundamentally flawed logic.

Cost for bar with band playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent, band.

Cost for bar with band not playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent.

The ONLY difference is the cost of the band, plus maybe a buck or two's worth of electricity to run the gear.

Precisely how is it possible that the bar needs to make 4x the band fee to cover costs?

 

[MingusBASS]

If you are a good band and you play stuff that the crowd will actually like it shouldn't be that hard to get a gig. You just have to know what clubs are a good fit for you, be confident with the booking person and tell them that you are up for the job. Then all you have to do is go out there and do it. It's all about getting your foot in the door.

Here is something very important to remember:

It doesn't matter what YOU like to play, it's all about the crowd and making them happy. If you make the crowd happy and they dance and buy more drinks, you'll make the club owner/manager happy and you'll be brought back. Sometimes you get lucky and the crowd likes the same tunes you do, but don't count on it.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I am not talking about making a living out of it either. We're talking about covering costs and supporting the hobby (cover band). Adouglas had a thread about here not long ago; the whole ordeal it takes to pull off your standard gig. Travel time, setup, soundcheck, the actual gig, tear down, travel again, etc... A normal 3 x 45 minute set gig is generally a 9 or 10 hour day. Generally when you're asking a regular bar for a relatively decent pay, when you do the math, we still end making less than minimum wage (or around that). This is not even taking into account rehearsal time, equipment costs and all that.

Of course, when you talk to bar managers, you have to be positive. Once they get wind that you're not very good or you might not be able to bring in a good crowd, then you're toast. So, I do agree with Koogs too. We provide posters, have a mailing list, Facebook and all that. But, at the end of the day, I don't think the band should be 100% responsible for doing all the work to fill their bar.

 

[bizmarckie]

Precisely how is it possible that the bar needs to make 4x the band fee to cover costs?

My only guess would be insurance or some sort of other weird costs incurred by hiring out a band? (I have no idea, my best guess )
I know from being in a band, it can be hard when you approach someone who has many "new" bands coming to them every day/week promising the world, but being unable to deliver. My old bands would usually play for free the first time, win over the person doing the booking (who would many times book for other places too), and earn ourselves some paying gigs after that. It takes some work, but it can pay off. It's kind of like starting a business; you have to invest some time/money before seeing a return Build the network man!

 

[Mogee]

I think its just part of the deal. Payin' your dues. Hoping to get enough people to like your stuff that makes it worthwhile for the bar to pay you. I have had success in the past by offering to open for an established band somewhere for free. You get in, the other band draws the crowd, they like you, the owner sees that they like you, then you get asked to play on your own. Most bands seem to bewilling to do it. They get paid the same amount for playing less time. Cover bands + College Frat parties = $$$, if you can handle that scene for a few hours. If you are a cover band, if you want to get gigs, you have to not lock into a specific genre. People love it in the middle of a set when you break out the 80s stuff. I think the more varied you are, the more fun the crowd will have, which will get you more paying playing time. Also music as a hobby will almost never pay for itself. Also you gotta watch for the paying gigs that give you cash and then send you a 1099 at the end of the year. That sucks.

 

[T-bone]

As a restaurant/club owner, and as a musician (not really I just play one on TV), I’m happy to give my little spin on it.

First and foremost, this is a business. If you want to work in my house you’ll need to bring in business. To adouglas’ point, chefs bring in business, bartenders bring in business, and even our severs bring in business. People like and follow them from restaurant to restaurant. So we really value these employees. Not only do they provide a service, but they help generate sales.

That is fundamentally flawed logic.

Cost for bar with band playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent, band.

Cost for bar with band not playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent.

Yes, we have fixed costs with rent and utilities, however, far and away our biggest expense is labor. Every restaurant has a daily nut, and if they don’t hit it, they’ll soon go out of business. So on the nights we have music, we need to staff up. Now our place is small, so it’s really quite easy. I can’t imagine a large place, however, I have to assume the equations are the same.

The ONLY difference is the cost of the band, plus maybe a buck or two's worth of electricity to run the gear.

Precisely how is it possible that the bar needs to make 4x the band fee to cover costs?

We’ve found our break even to be right around 2 x. Again, that’s break even.

Also you gotta watch for the paying gigs that give you cash and then send you a 1099 at the end of the year. That sucks.

If I pay you more than $600 per year, you’re going to sign a 1099. Period. Otherwise, the state just might label you an employee and my costs go up significantly.


The only reason we own a restaurant is because we bought a building with one already in place. We thought “how hard can this be?” Believe me, it’s one of the most challenging businesses we’ve been associated with.

Now as a musician, I struggle along with the rest of you. We have to justify our position to other restaurant/club owners, and show them just how we’ll bring business to their establishments. Personally, I think our biggest challenge is our age. And that’s a whole different topic.

tbone

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

We are always willing to try and work out payment arrangements that will be fair to the bar and the band, so we are open different terms.

I think part of the problem occurs with bars that don't often have bands or only on occasion. Bars with specific nights for bands (e.g. Friday and Saturday nights), they advertise that fact and everyone going to that bar knows that there will be a band - those places usually work well. People know what to expect and they often frequent those places because of it.

There are other bars that have no clue what you're talking about when you ask them if they have a PA. They don't have bands on a regular basis and really just have no clue. They change their formats often (dance music, classic rock, DJ), that I think they make it difficult to retain a loyal group of clientele.

I can understand the difficulty from the bar's side too though. I imagine that they get bombarded with bands of all sorts requesting to play. That's why having a professional demo, bio, website, song listing (basically a promo portfolio) comes in as well as persistence. Most places don't even listen to the demo.

It's a tough business from both sides, that's for sure!

 

[five7]

Change the name of your band to "Free Beer at Midnight" and when they put your name on the marquee, people will line up for blocks to get in. Seriously, what sucks is pay for bands has always been the same-nothing. Back in the late 70s and early 80s was the only times I remember getting paid decent and not having to worry about bringing a crowd. Since then it has been all downhill. Every band has to be ready to pay to play. The only way to beat the system is to write originals with killer hooks! And then put on a serious show each and every time you play!

 

[AnthonyD]

Change the name of your band to "Free Beer at Midnight" and when they put your name on the marquee, people will line up for blocks to get in...

Hysterical!


We've been asked this question lately, as we transition from a few summertime outdoor gigs a year to a once-twice monthly gigging Band year-round. For the most part we've been asked if we can get 50 people in the door (even in places that hold 500). We're enthusiastic with our "of course we can" response which has got us in the door - we do our thing, get good feedback and get asked back.

The Rhythm's gig I've posted pictures from is a prime example. That place can hold about 700, but that's spread wide through-out multiple areas. Less than 150 in the stage area feels empty. We worked hard to get in there (no referrals or contact). Kept stopping by and calling until we finally got the guy who can make it happen. He wanted 50 people (among other things) and gave us a shot at a Friday night - the stars aligned and we brought in about 100 of our own folks, total crowd closer to 250 and we had a blast. Enough to get us another Friday night.

Next time around we only have about 20 of our own folks show up but the place still has about 250-300 people on hand. Summer nights mean a lot of folks hang on the terrace, but most came in for the Band. Performance, sound and music-wise we had a better night than our first. We got great feedback from the crowd and we'll be back again - on a Saturday.

Moral of the story - Persistence pays off. Make your own opportunities work for you.

 

[maddog]

So how do you deal with that question when it gets asked?

you lie.

make sure you know the Fire Marshal decreed Maximum Occupancy before you lie so you look very reasonable while lying.

 

[DTG]

That is fundamentally flawed logic.

Cost for bar with band playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent, band.

Cost for bar with band not playing: Waitstaff/bartenders, bouncers, utilities, rent.

The ONLY difference is the cost of the band, plus maybe a buck or two's worth of electricity to run the gear.

Precisely how is it possible that the bar needs to make 4x the band fee to cover costs?

i think if you run it as a profit margin then in order to make 500 (band fee) you need to sell 2000 in beer.i dont know its just what we get told at the end of a night when we get paid,or when we go knocking on doors.

i have kinda given up on playing in pub's most of my gigs now are weddings or hotel functions.on one hand we are busy and the money is good on the other i am sick of playing "brown eye girl and sweet home"
we still play about once a month in a pub its the only one in town that a 5 peice band can fit into.the money is really bad but we get to play what we want and its much more fun all round.

 

[Aussie Mark]

What Koogs said. In this day and age, the best answer to the question about how many people your band can pull to the venue is to quote your Myspace/Reverbnation/whatever mailing list stats. There's no other real world scientific way to answer that question. If your Myspace site has 300 friends, tell them you can pull "up to 300" people. That's not BS at all.

 

[mrpackerguy]

Couple things. I can't believe EVERY club is going to ask you how many can you bring in/do you have a following. It's not that way around here, anyway. We never booked at a place that asked us that. Not that it's not a fair question, it's just that we found it hard to live up to that expectation. 200 people can email and tell you they're coming out to hear you, but you are usually lucky to see 35-40% of those people.

OTOH, when we used to play clubs, we'd do our damndest to pack the place. We'd tap every email list, every co-worker, family member, acquaintance, pet, inmate. Put up posters everywhere allowed, and talked it up. Whatever it took. I used to hate that, but considered it very much a necessity when playing clubs. The club owner doesn't have the time, $$ or motivation to promote you how you feel you should be promoted for a gig. After 30 years of playing clubs among other events, we finally said "no, not worth it anymore". We changed our marketing efforts 180 degrees. Except for a few club gigs, we only book wedding dances now and we're much happier, especially at the end of the night when the bride's father writes the check.