Possible Stupid Question # (Oh I lost Count)

[dwf1004]

OK, so this is the thread that separates the thugs from the slugs...

Well, fellow slugs, I know no theory. I've been blessed with a great ear to pick up things as I go, and the enlightment of tablature to get me through. I can kinda read music, but I have to sit and look at it to decipher it...no sight reading for me!

I've always just hit the strings, really...some of the noises that come from them sound good, and some of them don't (this is generally the issue here!) -- also, I've always gone by the "if it sounds good, do it" approach. I never studied, I never took formal lessons, and so on...I didn't want to end up too stale, or too "textbook". After the regimen of my 1st teacher, my grandfather, which was "practice, practice, practice", I followed the mindset of my 2nd teacher, a person of unmentionable status, and just tore up the rule book and did what I wanted to. Felt good to follow that advice, though the outcome?

BAD: I'm not selling out arenas because people want to see me play.
GOOD: I'm sober.

Overall, I'm happy with what I have as my "gift", but I'm not content. I want to learn more...hell, I'll even lob 'ol Razzamacaster a Jackson or two to pick his lil' brain on some of this stuff, if it will help me progress. I'm now at the point where I could learn the backbone, without seeing myself become a cardboard guitarist (i.e. no flavor, etc.)

OK, so apparently the topic allowed me to exercise some demons here...thanks, Razmatic, for such an inspiring topic. Seems that you and I are on the same level sometimes. (careful, don't let that comment bloat your already fat head! )

I think I'm picking me up a geetar when I get home form work...out...

 

[koogie2k]

Theoretically, I play the guitar......not great by any stretch of the imagination, but I play.

Music Theory...trying to get into it. We'll see. I still believe in the age old practice and play what you feel. Seems to have worked for some....

 

[Raz]

OK, so this is the thread that separates the thugs from the slugs...

Well, fellow slugs, I know no theory. I've been blessed with a great ear to pick up things as I go, and the enlightment of tablature to get me through. I can kinda read music, but I have to sit and look at it to decipher it...no sight reading for me!

I've always just hit the strings, really...some of the noises that come from them sound good, and some of them don't (this is generally the issue here!) -- also, I've always gone by the "if it sounds good, do it" approach. I never studied, I never took formal lessons, and so on...I didn't want to end up too stale, or too "textbook". After the regimen of my 1st teacher, my grandfather, which was "practice, practice, practice", I followed the mindset of my 2nd teacher, a person of unmentionable status, and just tore up the rule book and did what I wanted to. Felt good to follow that advice, though the outcome?

BAD: I'm not selling out arenas because people want to see me play.
GOOD: I'm sober.

Overall, I'm happy with what I have as my "gift", but I'm not content. I want to learn more...hell, I'll even lob 'ol Razzamacaster a Jackson or two to pick his lil' brain on some of this stuff, if it will help me progress. I'm now at the point where I could learn the backbone, without seeing myself become a cardboard guitarist (i.e. no flavor, etc.)

OK, so apparently the topic allowed me to exercise some demons here...thanks, Razmatic, for such an inspiring topic. Seems that you and I are on the same level sometimes. (careful, don't let that comment bloat your already fat head! )

I think I'm picking me up a geetar when I get home form work...out...

This is the post I have been waiting for...case in point DWF that's exactly how I play(ed), cause I still have a long way to go, but learning, I mean actually learning these scales, and not just cause a book says so, but why on the fretboard do they go there, for instance, opens up a whole new world...I have never been so excited about guitar...listen, you can't go wrong, you can't hit a wrong note, everything you play fits, you have a progression of chords and no matter which note you play, as long as those chords (chord names) are contained in the scale then you can't go wrong.(The best way to accomplish this is to learn the diatonic scales which contain all the major notes A B C D E F G. Actually it's one scale ) This to me is pure genius, something I never knew before...and then there's chords, but that's another story...hit me up bro, if I can learn in a few days anyone can. A friend of mine taught me using a very unique approach.

 

[Raz]

Theoretically, I play the guitar......not great by any stretch of the imagination, but I play.

Music Theory...trying to get into it. We'll see. I still believe in the age old practice and play what you feel. Seems to have worked for some....

I have used that approach for 20 years or so. I'm not on a theory conversion kick, I just want to share how, at one point I thought the same way as you did, but after learning a few scales, just a few, I am now able to play anything without error. I know it sounds like BS but it's true. And previous to this I would always play in the same area, repeating the same old riff...now, and here's the funny part (something that I thought was never possible), I am all over the fretboard, yet still playing the right notes. I'm serious here, once you start and see how much fun it is, and how, it actually frees you up as a player, then you'll be hooked.

 

[brentrocks]

"I PLAY, THEREFORE, I SUCK"

That's my theory when i'm jammin' sometimes.....

 

[kbaim]

Some theory. Can't sight read.

Usually analyse things a bit only after I write them...and by write, i mean think of, not actually write down.

I do follow a couple of rules when composing
1. does it sound musical
2. will I want to play it 5 minutes from now? 5 months from now?

 

[SteveB]

I find a little theory useful at band rehearsal. My bass player took lessons from a great jazz player, so he's got a solid foundation. When I'm trying to communicate what I want him to play, I'll tell him the note names, and sometimes I'll say, "OK then go up a major 3rd, then down a fifth.." etc.

A little theory helps save a lot of time in these situations. My singer, who plays guitar as well, is like you, Raz. He's been playing for a long time, but mostly the same stuff. He recently bought some Mel Bay books and started teaching himself from step 1. He can now sight read pretty well for basic melody lines. He also knows a few scales.

As for me, I know pentatonic, Ionian, and Aeolian scales very well. I'm not as well versed in the others. I know how to derive them, so I could pick them out if I had to, but I haven't invested the time just practicing scales/modes like I should.

I have a pretty good chord vocabulary, but I could work on that as well. I have been exposed to the circle of fifths for years, so I'm pretty comfortable with that. Like I said, I've had a lot of theory instruction, but not in the form of guitar lessons. Mine were for composing, so I spent more time at a piano or computer applying what I learned. I never picked up my guitar in those days and tried to apply the theory there. Talk about a missed opportunity!

 

[SteveB]

BTW, I studied under Dr. David Berlin, who is nothing short of a musical genius. (Not that any of THAT rubbed off..)

I just googled him, and you can see his impressive credentials at his web site.

I think I'll go drop him an email. He was a hero to many of us. Roland sent him this music computer that was basically a hardware drum machine/sequencer with onboard synthesis. It was one of only a few made, and we had to program that sucker as part of our class.

I also took his Electronic Music class, which was cool 'cause we got to play with reel to reel tape machine, learned how to splice tape, multi-track (even manually, by blocking the erase head!), play with old ANALOG synths (ARP's and Roland Juno 106's), make tape loops, create sound-on-sound echo effects.. what a great experience. That was in 10th grade.

 

[FoxMustang]

Theoretically, I play the guitar......not great by any stretch of the imagination, but I play.

Music Theory...trying to get into it. We'll see. I still believe in the age old practice and play what you feel. Seems to have worked for some....

That's about where I am.

I used to be able to sight-read music back in elementary & middle school (started on the clarinet then moved to guitar). When I stopped taking lessons I lost that really quick.

Learning some theory would be neat, but I don't have any burning desire to do so.

 

[shamus63]

Guilty...and quite proud of it! I rely 99.9% on my ear, although I do know the notes I'm playing.

But if someone calls out a chord pattern (G#m w/a dim 5th, or some sh*t like that), I go !

Ah hell, that chord probably doesn't exist anyway...and I don't care.

 

[tvanveen]

I've always just hit the strings, really...some of the noises that come from them sound good, and some of them don't (this is generally the issue here!) -- also, I've always gone by the "if it sounds good, do it" approach. I never studied, I never took formal lessons, and so on...I didn't want to end up too stale, or too "textbook".

That's me right there. I never really wanted to emulate anyone, or sound like anyone else...the best advice you see in the guitar mags is when some guitar god tells us to find out own voice, and do our own thing.

I can now proudly say I don't sound like anyone who is any good.

tv

 

[Roubster]

SteveB, what freakin HS did YOU go to!?!?!?!?! My high school didnt even have a SINGLE simple music class. The middle school I went to had more music classes. My HS didnt even have any proper sports teams, and the one I joined I got kicked out of cuz I was a rebel . I DID get to jam with the other cool kinds in the school which was a few. Hangin with them was the ONLY good thing about HS whatsoever.

 

[Raz]

See here is where I think we get lost...SteveB's theory is way more intricate than what I am referring to as theory (no disrespect bro), and I think that's what puts most of us off. I'm simply talking guitar theory, which is scales, chord building and arpeggios...there is still a lot of room for feel and improv because, as you know music also deals with time signatures. So you decide when and how to play it, and let the 'theory of music' lay out some rules and guide you on what to play, that in essence sounds right.

 

[tommyindelaware]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
doe
ray
me
fa
so
la
tee
hee !!!!

 

[Raz]

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
doe
ray
me
fa
so
la
tee
hee !!!!

Yup it's all math...

 

[fsmith]

Raz,
I'd be interested in hearing about what you've learned and how. I'm always looking for something to help expand my knowledge. I took lessons for a year or so to get the basics down, but I've found that I've made bigger strides by just 'shedding for a couple of hours every few days. I do try and play something every day though.

I hated being locked into learning something that my instructor wanted me to and then stressing about it for the next week. I'd focus so intently on that one scale or piece of music that I was actually keeping myself from progressing the way I thought I should. Once I gave that up, I started making better progress, but I know there's plenty more theory-wise to learn and I'd like to eventually. It will come in time.

I'm also *very* scared sh!tless about playing in front of anyone yet. And after seeing some of the chops on you guys in SLO, I have every reason to be. So I hole myself up in my room and put on the headphones and go to town.

But I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, it's something I wanted to do all my life and never did until a year or so ago. I'm loving life.

fred

 

[SteveB]

Roubster,

I was very fortunate in that my school district had a lot to offer. We had elective courses available such as: electronics, hydraulics and robotics, computer programming, 2 and 4 cycle engines, house wiring, automotive, and the usual shop classes. We also had a great selection of musical classes back then. I am not sure what is still offered in the music curriculum though, as most schools seem to be slashing those departments in favor of football stadiums, which are so much more beneficial .

I did email my former teacher last night, and one of the guys from my high school theory classes is now teaching at that school district, so I emailed him as well. I will find out what they're offering these days.

Raz,

I'm talking about the same theory as you. There is no guitar-specific theory in anything that you've mentioned yet. The same scales, chords, arpeggios, circle of fifths, etc. apply to all instruments/sounds.

It just gets a little tricky when you're dealing with multiple instruments which aren't all 'tuned' to concert pitch. If I write a song and want to hear a "C", I would write a "C" on the staff for the flute player's part. To get the same pitch from a B-flat Clarinet player, I would need to write a "D" on their score. Instruments like clarinet are called transposing instruments, and when you write music for multiple instruments to play simultaneously and forget about transposing instruments, you can create one hell of a noise!

Trust me, I've been there!

 

[Raz]

Raz,

I'm talking about the same theory as you. There is no guitar-specific theory in anything that you've mentioned yet. The same scales, chords, arpeggios, circle of fifths, etc. apply to all instruments/sounds.

It just gets a little tricky when you're dealing with multiple instruments which aren't all 'tuned' to concert pitch. If I write a song and want to hear a "C", I would write a "C" on the staff for the flute player's part. To get the same pitch from a B-flat Clarinet player, I would need to write a "D" on their score. Instruments like clarinet are called transposing instruments, and when you write music for multiple instruments to play simultaneously and forget about transposing instruments, you can create one hell of a noise!

Trust me, I've been there!

You're not helping the cause here, your scaring off my potential customers
I agree, my point was more or less the way one goes about learning and the discipline of it. Your 'theory' I related more to the STAFF (sheet music), whereas guitar theory, I'm thinking more the fretboard diagram...there is a difference to those of us who are unexperienced, one of which is Goliath in nature.

fsmith
Raz,
I'd be interested in hearing about what you've learned and how. I'm always looking for something to help expand my knowledge. I took lessons for a year or so to get the basics down, but I've found that I've made bigger strides by just 'shedding for a couple of hours every few days. I do try and play something every day though.

I hated being locked into learning something that my instructor wanted me to and then stressing about it for the next week. I'd focus so intently on that one scale or piece of music that I was actually keeping myself from progressing the way I thought I should. Once I gave that up, I started making better progress, but I know there's plenty more theory-wise to learn and I'd like to eventually. It will come in time.

I'm also *very* scared sh!tless about playing in front of anyone yet. And after seeing some of the chops on you guys in SLO, I have every reason to be. So I hole myself up in my room and put on the headphones and go to town.

But I'm doing this for my own enjoyment, it's something I wanted to do all my life and never did until a year or so ago. I'm loving life.

fred

Well it should be easy for you then, I don't know if it will be as revolutionary to you as it was to me, but for example, let's look at the following scale. Forget what it's called for now, just know that it is a diatonic scale that contains all the major notes. Simply memorize the SIMPLE patterns for each segment or block of frets and whenever you want to jam, as long as, for example, the bass player plays a progression that contains A-B-C-D-E-and/or F, then you cannot hit a wrong note.
I know I'm jumping the gun, but if you look at the pattern contained between the 2nd and 6th fret, you'll see what I mean. Within this scale is the famous pentatonic scale (5 notes). Again you can show up anywhere, tell the bass player..."Look buddy stick to the major notes, and I'll take care of the rest" and with this scale pattern (mode) you CAN NEVER HIT A WRONG NOTE!

Ionian
C D E F G A B C W W H W W W H
E (E) ||-F--|----|-G--|----|-A--|----|-B--|-C--|----|-D--|----|-E--|
B (B) ||-C--|----|-D--|----|-E--|-F--|----|-G--|----|-A--|----|-B--|
G (G) ||----|-A--|----|-B--|-C--|----|-D--|----|-E--|-F--|----|-G--|
D (D) ||----|-E--|-F--|----|-G--|----|-A--|----|-B--|-C--|----|-D--|
A (A) ||----|-B--|-C--|----|-D--|----|-E--|-F--|----|-G--|----|-A--|
E (E) ||-F--|----|-G--|----|-A--|----|-B--|-C--|----|-D--|----|-E--|


Alternative: Major
The Scalculator by Jason Melton. ushimitsudoki.com

 

[SteveB]

Raz,

Sorry! I don't mean to scare off your potential customers!

The main thing that I think you are discovering, pattern-wise, is called the "tetrachord".

The tetrachord (greek for "four notes") is simply this pattern:

Whole-Whole-Half (steps) I'll say "WWH".

The major scale is comprised of two tetrachords separated by a whole step, i.e.:

WWH W WWH

If you really think on this for a while, things really start to make sense. A whole step being notes which are 2 frets apart on the guitar, and a half-step being notes which are one fret apart. (I know I'm stating what is probably obvious to some, but I don't want to assume any prior knowledge.)

Take that stepping pattern and look at the chart that you posted. You'll see that you've just mapped the C major scale all over the fingerboard, and you'll observe the "two tetrachords separated by a whole step".

Hope this is helpful more than confusing. Just think WWH W WWH (repeat).

 

[Raz]

Raz,

Sorry! I don't mean to scare off your potential customers!

The main thing that I think you are discovering, pattern-wise, is called the "tetrachord".

The tetrachord (greek for "four notes") is simply this pattern:

Whole-Whole-Half (steps) I'll say "WWH".

The major scale is comprised of two tetrachords separated by a whole step, i.e.:

WWH W WWH

If you really think on this for a while, things really start to make sense. A whole step being notes which are 2 frets apart on the guitar, and a half-step being notes which are one fret apart. (I know I'm stating what is probably obvious to some, but I don't want to assume any prior knowledge.)

Take that stepping pattern and look at the chart that you posted. You'll see that you've just mapped the C major scale all over the fingerboard, and you'll observe the "two tetrachords separated by a whole step".

Hope this is helpful more than confusing. Just think WWH W WWH (repeat).

It makes pefect sense, and when your constructing chords it works the same way:
0 Unison
1 flat 2nd
2 2nd_________________________________________W
3 minor 3rd
4 major 3rd_____________________________________W
5 perfect 4th_______________________________________H
6 flat 5th (diminished 5th or augmented 4th)
7 perfect 5th____________________________________W
8 minor 6th (or sharp 5th/augmented 5th)
9 major 6th______________________________________W
10 minor 7th (flat 7th)
11 major 7th________________________________________W

then of course H or i/2 step (1/2 note) to the 12th or the octave.

Check this...12 frets, 7 notes...12 divided by 7 = 1.7...can't do it, but if you go 2+2+1+2+2+2+1=12
w+w+h+w+w+w+h=12